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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2005 : 11:11:26 AM
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 hey anyone watch the ress conference last night?
if there is a single soul left that actually supports him afetr watching that, you are an idiot, period.
 he stumbled over every question like a 5 year old, and avoided anything that should have been answered. it was sneaky, scripted, and eerie of whats to come.
 its funny because the people behind are true propagandists, yet bush is just a puppet and very simple minded. He could barely pull off the task of lying without it looking so blantant and obvious.
 so again, if you watched the conference and still support him, you are a bafoon with absolutely no intelligence. Go read a book...
 Also, if you want to read something interesting, go look online and news reports on september 12, 2001. Check new york times, any of them for archived news...you'll notice that the offical story is layed out, and has not changed since. hmm the day after without an investigation they had it all written out as a press release. Pretty strange if there wasn;t any prior knowledge or involvment.
 this stuff makes me sick, and sure, ive lost most hope, but seeing how much their barrier is crumbling and people ARE waking up and realizing that our government had complete control over the events that happened that day.
dont believe me...buy this video and watch it...it sums up everything and its only like $30 on dvd. I swear it will be the most important purchase of your lifetime. Better hurry, before its too late.
http://www.store.yahoo.com/infowars-shop/nemalaw9riof.html
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 1:11:49 PM
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I haven't seen that video yet, but reading about it brought to mind a conversation I had with a friend this weekend. We were talking about how Hitler had his story that he was trying to make a reality. You know the third reich and all. So then we were talking about what story we're working on today as a society. It became very clear to me what was happening all of the sudden. Everywhere at my school there are these conservative religous people walking around and the school paper always has a good amount of conservitive opinion. All these people are sure that the earth is on the eve of destruction. I didn't realize how seriously they took this stuf till I talked to one of them about the final battle between good and evil.
I think that they are seriously making it happen. The government is using it too. I mean they have these bible stories of things that are to happen and they are making them come about. They are trying to rid the world of evil just like hitler did. It's begining to get really scary. I mean knowing about the NWO and all and seeing what's being done to the government and to public opinion is seriously scary. What are people going to do when they say it's time to rid the world of evil?
So far the support for this shit has only grown. You have more people voting for this religous man out destroying "evil". These people that are trying to control the courts and take away basic rights. People may say I'm full of shit, but I think that that's where we are headed is to this police state. A whole new fucking dark age. Jane Jacobs wrote a great book about it too called Dark Age Ahead which isn't so much about a religous right or anything but is about their policies and what they mean. Things are going to start going down and damn soon because we the american people let it. |
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Robin
Yak Addict
USA
598 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 1:23:16 PM
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| It's really scary isn't it? I try to not be complacent and pay attention that's for sure. Hate is not a word I use but I truly hate Bush. And Rumsfeld, what a weasely bastard.I have to watch the Daily show for some comic relief. It's a miserable TIMe we live in and it's sad really. Stay active in whatever is important to you. Politics, the environment whatever it is. Peace, Robin |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 1:46:48 PM
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9/11: The Road to Tyranny is quite a good movie, too, and on this topic. It ties together all those Hitler ideas with what's happening now, the basic idea that for the government to squander the rights of the people willingly, some tragedy or crisis just be created, and followed by a manipulation in the name of that which is good.
Interesting stuff, psych-ops, propaganda, population control...All of these things arguably are going on today in America. Not much of a surprise, either, as the average American would be willing to throw himself in camouflage gear and shoot some "terrorists."
Don't let anyone tell you who the Enemy is, people. Find out for yourself through information. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 1:47:32 PM
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right on people!
The other thing that bugs me is people use like Michael Moore as there reference if they hate bush...he whitewashed the whole thing and left out some important details...(norad standing down comes to mind)...
lots of scary shit and this phony left/right paradigm has got everyone against each other, like a football team... |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 2:02:01 PM
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These are all HUGE generalizations. First of all, to call all people an "idiot" for something they support is absurd. And I'm not trying to defend Bush here, I'm just saying you're lumping a big population into a group and saying they are all "bafoons" for something they support. If you say you don't agree with Bush then thats cool. But last time I checked this was America and people can believe and choose what they want and should be able to do so without being maliciously attacked. I just can't understand why people can't just agree to disagree and go on with their business respectfully.
And Zachmozach, you're grouping every person of every religion into one group. You said "religious people" Which religion? Which people? There are tons of different religions. I'm not sure how anyone can make a statement like that. So I guess if you choose to worship God, Mohamed, Allah or whomever, they're all lumped into this category? Unbelievable! Maybe you think Christians are this way since you say they're bringing up "bible stories" but I don't know and I don't want to speak for you. But, I'm a Christian and I don't have those views you speak of at all. Far from it. Just because some confussed kids at your school have an opinion doesn't mean everyone shares their opinion. You can't lump a large mass of people together because of a few bad seeds regardless if its religion or politics. I don't believe people will ever rid this world of evil. Evil is brought on by people therefore, people will not rid this world of evil.
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 7:49:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth
But last time I checked this was America and people can believe and choose what they want and should be able to do so without being maliciously attacked. I just can't understand why people can't just agree to disagree and go on with their business respectfully.
Well, the group of idiots he was referring to are doing everything they can to vote people into office that take away our rights (abortion, euthenasia, gay marriage, etc). They follow Bush with a little too much blind faith if you ask me, and yes, if you still support Bush after the spectacle that happened last night then there's a good chance you have to take off your shoes to count to 20.
quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth
And Zachmozach, you're grouping every person of every religion into one group. You said "religious people" Which religion? Which people? There are tons of different religions. I'm not sure how anyone can make a statement like that. So I guess if you choose to worship God, Mohamed, Allah or whomever, they're all lumped into this category? Unbelievable!
I think whenever someone talk about Bush and "religious people" everyone pretty much knows it means wacky Evangelicals.
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Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 9:15:57 PM
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Note for all you people who are taking words literally:
This is a forum for an musical artist. Expect NO double-checking of statements or even careful wording even in such political topics like this. We're all just saying what's on our mind, and no, it NEVER comes out in text exactly the way we all think. My mom is a supporter of Bush, and yes, I feel she is overly-conservative and YESSS she's dumb, but by no means does she have to "take [her] shoes off to count to 20."
And if you're a statistic man, google the avg IQ's of all the states who voted Bush in the 04 election, and you will see the STARTLING(dripping with sarcasm) trend that the lower-IQ-states voted Bush. Faaaascinating... |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 10:16:39 PM
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Kenneth from the other posts on the boards I know you're religous and I mean no offense to you. That said I made a huge generalization and it was the only way to make my point that I run into a large amount of people who are usually the evangelical types rubylith talked about, but pretty much christians that believe that god is coming and we must rid the world of evil. Anyone who believes that they must rid the world of evil through evil tactics is confused.
I also agree that more issues should be discussed instead of these malicous attacks, however you have to realize that we feel like slamming our heads into the wall and yelling at some of these people every now and then. Look I had a speech class where half of the class gave pro-bush speeches. That in and of itself seems fairly normal, but you should have heard them. One guy went off about how badly the enviroment has been treated and such and then had the balls to end with what a great job Bush was doing with it and then envokes the name of god to say how bush is following his plan for the earth. That to me is really fucking scary. Not only the level of mind control that they have exerted over that kid, but the fact that he's actively trying to make his whacked view of the world come true.
The thing is that Bush and the powers that are running the world (NWO, and those that are a part of that) are ruining the earths ability to support human life. Of course it will be a little while before this really starts to be evident, but it's happening. Along the way they are turning our government into a sham. They are reversing the prosperity that americans once had by only letting a small percentage recieve the benifits and worst of all the constantly go around envoking the name of god and saying how they are going to stop abortion and all this evil and that evil. Some are more crazy then others, but when you have a bunch of mindless christians (once again no offense to you and forgive the generalization) following the guy based on he is on gods side myself and others want to let people know how ridiculous it is.
Anyway I will never agree to disagree when it comes down what I feel is a threat to humanity and when I see something destroying so much. If anyone wants to discuss issues I'm all for it. I just can't comprehend how someone can support Bush. It's so not logical. I mean the whole idea of ridding the world of terrorists as we kill 100,000 is absurd. I won't debate religous beliefs though and even though I made big generalizations I didn't mean to offend anyone I'm just talking about that person we all know that supports this stuff based on their religion and think bush is great because he says god is with him and he prays and all that. |
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thomasode
Yak Addict
565 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 12:18:00 AM
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something that pissed me off was when he was talking about renewing the NAFTA agreement with central american countries becaue they "have a friend in america". and right after that he went into the "no child left behind" policy, beacue everyone needs education. In mexico right now, because of NAFTA, the poor are not getting the free education they were gaurenteed in their constitution because of NAFTA. To accomidate NAFTA, the Mexican government was required to re-write article (I believe) 13 taking land from the poor and education from the masses.
Bush is a hipocrite and a bigot...anywho how is everyone doing? |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 02:40:31 AM
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what confuses me is how this being a musical artist's message board somehow translates into the fact we don't have to check our posts to see if they say what we want them to say on political topics. since when does being on a musician's website pardon you from having to clearly communicate your ideas? it doesn't. you still have to be clear. you still have to say what you mean. well, you don't have to, but i'm assuming people enjoy being understood more than they enjoy squabbling over something that stems from miscommunication.
i don't get it. you presumably have command enough of written english to select and arrange words in such a way that they represent whatever you're trying to get across. if you don't stop to make sure you're saying what you want to say, i question how much you really care about what you're saying. |
death to false metal. |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 08:35:40 AM
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Zachmozach, don't worry man, I wasn't offended at all. I didn't try to come across that way. I'm not easily offended. And like I said I wasn't trying to support Bush either, actually I prefer shaved. :) Seriously, I was just trying to present the other side and state that grouping everyone together on someone elses idea or opinion of something just isn't right; rather it is religious based or political or whatever. And what I meant by being able to agree to disagree is that there is a way to do it were you get your point across clearly and there is a way to do it were you won't get very far in what you're trying to say. There are some really smart people here and I think it's good to be able to debate something inteligently and respectfully so that everyone involved gets their opinion out there and isn't ripped to shreds for doing so. Everyone has an opinion and everyone should be able to voice it freely. Thats basically all I was trying to get across. I think it's cool that everyone here is so different and has different ideas and opinions. I like that about this board, you get a little bit of everything.
And Dan P, I'm with you on what you said. I double check things when I post to make sure it's coming across the way I want it to so that hopefully I'm not misunderstood. When you're typing about something you have to be even more clear than when you're talking about something. If someone comes out like in the first post of this thread and says "if you believe this and support this then you're an idiot, period", their argument doesn't hold much merit. If they can't find other more productive words to use in order to present themselves and their view then I say it is they who need to "go read a book" because it is they who are misinformed and/or uneducated about what they're trying to say because they can't say it without saying hey, your stupid. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 10:00:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth
If they can't find other more productive words to use in order to present themselves and their view then I say it is they who need to "go read a book" because it is they who are misinformed and/or uneducated about what they're trying to say because they can't say it without saying hey, your stupid.
Yo' mama!  |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 10:15:55 AM
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Good one... you little Muskrat. 
"I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast. You eat pieces of shit for breakfast?" I can't remember what movie this is from but I ripped it off from somewhere. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 2:31:12 PM
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| Muskrat, we all find it funny that the guy can't speak because he is a puppet and the fact that they chose such a lame puppet is what's surprising. However what makes him a terrible president is his constant siding with the corporate agenda and his outright lies and propaganda he feeds to the US public. I still agree with Rubylith though that if you support Bush you're incredibly ingnorant. |
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Jiyra
Chatterbox
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 3:32:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
MOSES (yeah, deliverer of the Israelites, Ten Commandments Moses) had a speech impediment for crying out loud.
how in the world could you possibly know that? did someone write Moses' biography? Bush doesn't have an impediment, he's inarticulate, there is a difference. also, guitarispimp, please don't tell me you actually believe IQ has anything to do with political beliefs-or religious beliefs, just to get that one out of the way. |
silly girl, sanity is for boys |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 5:16:38 PM
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dan, what i meant was that one shouldn't expect the standards of the debates in these posts to be up to par with, say, a democratics-anonymous msg board or something. Therefore, when someone says "religious-people" when the thread relates to Bush and his wonderful little Bible-fetish, one should assume they're referring to the reactionary, anal-retentive, often hypocritical super-Christians.
I expect clear, well-written sentences, but I also expect that this is a much more casual discussion environment for politics than other places. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 5:43:39 PM
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| alright. i can see that. |
death to false metal. |
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Robin
Yak Addict
USA
598 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2005 : 3:52:10 PM
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Lets talk a little about the NO child behind act...the "no rich white child left behind" is more like it. It's all a screen, and if most people had the TIMe or inclination to scratch the surface they'd find out this hasn't even been funded yet. There has been the promise for as long as Bush has been in office, which if I think about how long that's been, will make me ill.
It creates infighting within the districts because if just one school in a particular district shows test scores that are too low, the whole district is penalized by not getting funding.Funding for basic things like pencils and books!!! It has forced teachers to have to spend much of the year teaching to the test. (We don't want to have any free thinkers running around now do we)?! The environment is a whole other issue, and it breaks my heart,we are losing so much that we can never get back, despite what the government tells us. My fear is that we end up having little bits of forest and water sheds,a sliver of nature, and the worst thing is that some people will accept that. While I like to support the idea that this is a free country, I don't feel very free.Especially with my rights being erroded under the guise of protection from terrorists. And I really think if you believe the lying weasel of a president and his cohorts,you should use all the resources you have as a free citizen, to really look into what it is you are actually supporting. Ask questions, and don't stop till you are satisfied with the sources of information and you understand. Then again you may just want to bury your head in the sand...Peace, Robin |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2005 : 9:42:08 PM
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| as a potential teacher, i dislike the no child left behind act, but my ideal planet is like coursant. it's all one big city. |
death to false metal. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 12:14:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jiyra
quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
MOSES (yeah, deliverer of the Israelites, Ten Commandments Moses) had a speech impediment for crying out loud.
how in the world could you possibly know that? did someone write Moses' biography? Bush doesn't have an impediment, he's inarticulate, there is a difference. also, guitarispimp, please don't tell me you actually believe IQ has anything to do with political beliefs-or religious beliefs, just to get that one out of the way.
I never said Bush had an impediment... and here's Exodus 4:10-16 KJV for ya good buddy!
"10 But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue." 11 Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."13 But he said, "Oh, my Lord, send, I pray, some other person." 14 Then the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses and he said, "Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well; and behold, he is coming out to meet you, and when he sees you he will be glad in his heart. 15 And you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and will teach you what you shall do. 16 He shall speak for you to the people; and he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God."
Not quite a biography, but is that good enough for ya? |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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anthony1832
Try A Little Harder
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 09:14:19 AM
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| Bush is trying to take away our rights of abortion!!! Damn I love killing innocent children, because i'm an idiot and dont take proper precautions. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 09:25:37 AM
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wow its on fire...
Yes I shouldn't generalize people and call them dumb, and yes i was pissed and so on...
but only if you watched the conference you would know what I mean. Hopefully I will have video of it soon. It was unbelievable and yes, if after watching that you say, "you know that bush tells the truth and hes a good man" then yes, im sorry, you are an idiot.
At one point someone asked about torutre, and he stumbled all over it saying, "well we hope the countries we ship our prisoners off to don't alolow torture, we can only assume so."
it was crazy...but the whole thing was astounding to watch. Just lies, obvious lies...
and what struck me that was odd, that FOX announced was that all of the other nextworks canned the showing of it, only FOX showed it. Possibly because 75% of the people who watch fox are conservative and of course they agree with everything he says.
anyway who knows why, but it wasnt watched by many, and it should have been. it was scary, distuerbing, odd, and somewhat comical.
OK...READ THIS...
There was an article in US TOday, here it is:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-08-05-csi-effect_x.htm
ok, so here's the deal...TV is effecting jurys across the country. Promoting DNA, retna scanning and everything that is wrong with the controlling technology. CSI is given federal money to promote governmental technologies in every episode. its covert propoganda at its finest. Then we have shows like the shield, COPS, NYPD Blue, 24 that promote torture and not haveing a warrant and various other police state tactics. Like "breaking an arm is good"!
its so messed up but I think people are finally waking up. Its just when I go out I see this stuff everywhere, from cameras on the streets, to blimps with high tech cameras, to google maps having a satellite view of everything...its accelerating and I think the majority of people either don't care, havent given it thought or are just too stupid or stubborn to there left/right allegences to stop it. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 1:01:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony1832
Bush is trying to take away our rights of abortion!!! Damn I love killing innocent children, because i'm an idiot and dont take proper precautions.
Welcome. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Jiyra
Chatterbox
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 5:05:27 PM
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| okay, you win muskrat |
silly girl, sanity is for boys |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 6:14:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony1832
Bush is trying to take away our rights of abortion!!! Damn I love killing innocent children, because i'm an idiot and dont take proper precautions.
i don't disagree completely. it should only be used in cases where women have no freedom of will (such as rape or incest) or when a woman's life is in danger.
however, if abortion were to be overturned, they would have to achieve that by overturning it's precedence, griswold v connecticut, which states that everyone has a right to reproductive privacy (court held a law banning contraceptives to be unconstitutional; based on
"penumbras" in the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments. this is the basis for roe v wade). and if you were to do that, you would absolutely be legislating your morality upon others. just ask pjk (for starters) what effect taking the pill away from women would have.
but you know, it's a good thing we all voted for bush. he's been able to outlaw abortion, and didn't use that to play on the emotions of voters. and because he prays to god, he must be a good man. he's brought prosperity back to the rich: god's chosen according to calvanists, and social darwinism should be the backbone of our society anyway. gilded age forever! malaise forever! and god bless him for bringing back the crusades, making america a righteous aggressor nation who humbly invades in the name of good. let's just hope to god that this is the last crusade, and that the world will end soon. the detainment of arabs after the towers fell was justified, and was nothing like herding the japanese into internment camps. also, who fucking cares that our actions have killed a hundred thousand alone in iraq, that's nothing compared to the unrelated 2800 American deaths, as those fucking foreigners are a dime a dozen anyway (and they all look the same), and what is 100,000 iraqi's compared to 2800 americans? the war on terror is surely god's plan.
i looking forward to our confrontation with iran next, as we properly look for ways to invade them (and if we can't find any proof, let's invent some, as they would probably do what we accuse them of anyway). also, let's make sure our soldiers of god don't retreat to fear, a backdoor draft will fix that. i'm glad that a friend of mine who was on leave from iraq was threatened that if he didn't extend his contract with the army, that he wouldn't get any medals, and would be sent to iraq again asap, and that if he did sign it, he would have some leisure time and might not go back. i'm glad that he then signed the contract with our honorable army until 2009, and was sent to iraq right after he signed it.
it's a good thing that our ingenious president has let north korea become capable of nuking us and our friends, paying no attention to them until they had the capabilites to do so. that way, god can test us even greater, and we can then fully smith north korea costing many lives, when we could've done so with much fewer or by different means. after all, human beings are infallable when they let the holy spirit enlighten them.
and yes, we should go back to ultra conservatism. we need normalcy in our lives (god bless republicans for making up their own words; it's normality). a chicken in every pot, and a car in every garage. we can have segregation and slavery again, and women will be put in their proper place as child bearers and servants of men, the rule of thumb applying. bring back prayer in school i say, and make those damn hippies get a haircut. we should return to isolationism. let's let the rich (god's chosen) and the government back into our lives, as freedom is a small price to pay to fight terrorists.
GOD BLESS THE USA!
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 7:06:10 PM
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the abortion/anti-abortion argument does not actually address the problem at all. the problem is that people who don't want kids are, in fact, havinh kids. whether it be rape or whatever. people who don't want kids are having them. and that's the problem. fix this problem, and abortion no longer becomes an issue.
i'd be inclined to agree with anthony, for the most part. not so much about "killing innocent kids" because, from a strictly developmental point of view, fetuses are not "kids." that term is misleading. i also don't think much of the "sanctity of life" thing, because, you know, it isn't. everything alive dies. what's so sacred? and, if you're against abortion, you're against death penalty and this war. even if you say you aren't, and even if you think you aren't, you are. by virtue of the fact that you believe life is sacred, you are. anti-abortion = anti-war. this is a tautology.
but i do agree that abortion allows for irresponsible behavior. if you have sex and both parties are willing, and the girl gets pregnant, your right to bitch about it is effectively forfeit. don't want babies? don't partake in a biological process designed for the sole purpose of creating babies. nothing can be simpler. a little self-control. that's all it takes. but, would you be willing to bring a child into the world disadvantaged, and they would be disavantaged, simply because you believe that it's someone else's tough luck.
but this is all a moot point because legal or not, women will still get abortions. |
death to false metal. |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 7:22:24 PM
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quote:
Then we have shows like the shield, COPS, NYPD Blue, 24 that promote torture and not haveing a warrant and various other police state tactics. Like "breaking an arm is good"!
I try not to touch these threads with a 10 foot pole... but I cannot sit back and watch any longer... you've sucked me in. Frankly, I don't care what your political views are. These threads do nothing but let the board members vent their frustrations with the current state of affairs by blaming everyone and everything, most specifically republicans... but I'll BE DAMNED if you're going to bring 24 into this.
You can blame Bush. You can blame Cheney. You can blame congress. You can blame the house. You can blame the people. You can blame the pope. You can blame gays. You can blame the devil. You can blame apathy. You can blame the man. You can blame disease. You can blame the economy. You can blame conservatives. You can blame the parents. You can blame the children. You can blame technology. You can blame capitalism. You can blame radicals. You can blame the system. You can blame Hollywood. You can blame SUV's. You can blame the internet. You can blame communists. You can blame suicide. You can blame rock music. You can blame the prisons. You can blame sex. You can blame violence. You can blame the jews. You can blame the Muslims. You can blame the schools. You can blame El Nino. You can blame inflation. You can blame the media. You can blame the homeless. You can blame TV. You can blame Dave Matthews fans. You can blame Carrot Top. You can blame Canada. You can blame me. You can blame jell-o. Hell, you can even blame CSI. But by god, leave 24 out of it. Greatest... show... ever. David Palmer for president, 2008. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 7:34:50 PM
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first of all, i hate how this board erases your post if you forgot to login. fuck.
i agree with you mostly dan. i'll just leave it at that.
the problem is that people want to like bush because of his "morality", which is questionable at best to those not blinded by faith in bush.
some people love to turn every argument into abortion and voted for bush because of it, but you're not getting what you voted for, because he's having a hell of a time getting his own agenda through, without a godaweful static topic such as abortion.
but this thread isn't about abortion, no matter how much some people want it to be, this is about how bush affects the world and everyday life in the us.
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Robin
Yak Addict
USA
598 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 11:20:13 PM
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| "but i do agree that abortion allows for irresponsible behavior". Dan, I have to really disagree with you. Abortion does NOT make it easier to have iresponsibe sex. Sorry, but as a woman I have to say when faced with an unplanned pregnancy, unless you're completely unfeeling it's not an easy choice, but it's a legal choice thankfully, and if men could get pregnant this probably wouldn't be a topic for discussion. I don't mean that in a nasty Nah, nah, kind of way, but think about it. Peace, Robin |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 11:31:32 PM
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ok. maybe you don't believe that. i had just assumed that, you know, you had a consistant thought process going on, as opposed to randomly choosing sides on things, without worrying about being a veritable self-collapsing vortex of self-contradiction. i assumed that sort of thing bothered you. if it does, think about it. let me walk you through why, if you truly believe life is sacred, you cannot possibly be for death penalty or the war. if you'll indulge me:
you hold forth that life is sacred, and humans have no right to take life, being a gift from god. therefore, the abortion of a fetus, which can be considered life, is wrong. ok. so far so good.
but now, here's the war. war is humans taking lives. you have already decided humans taking lives is bad. you're fundamentally opposed to the very things that make a war a war. you have no choice but to be opposed to it, because life, which is taken in war, is sacred, or to recant your believe that life is sacred. if it was sacred, you wouldn't be for snuffing it out under any circumstances. these moral issues aren't seperate entities. they are connected by the morals that you claim to have.
what you're basically saying by being opposed to abortion but for the war is "life is sacred, unless a group of people does something and other people who aren't god decide that it's ok to kill them." if that sounds ok to you, then you're in pretty bad shape, fella. |
death to false metal. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 11:42:41 PM
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i love that "men don't have babies, so they shouldn't make judgements about abortion." argument, because it illustrates so clearly the double standard women who say that have. firstly, the baby, regardless of who delivers it, is half of the man involved genetically. i think that gives him at least a little say in it. but putting that aside, if you're willing to say "i deliever the baby, so it's my decision whether i have it or not." ok, if you want to claim full responsibility like that, then you can raise it by yourself without financial aid from the man whom you essentially said "fuck off it's mine" to. basically that's saying "it's wholly my responsibility for it, until it starts costing money. then it's yours, too." it's either just yours or both of yours. you can't switch.
but come to think of it, you're probably right about legal abortion not breeding irresponsible behavior, because as i said earlier, legal or not, abortions will happen. |
death to false metal. |
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anthony1832
Try A Little Harder
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 11:50:09 PM
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| Dan, you do make some good points, but i would have to disagree with this "if you're against abortion, you're against death penalty and this war. even if you say you aren't, and even if you think you aren't, you are. by virtue of the fact that you believe life is sacred, you are. anti-abortion = anti-war." There is a big difference between a fetice and someone who has raped and killed 5 people. And most soldiers in a war are there voluntarily, and accept the possible consequences. I wouldnt say all people who are against abortion believe "life is sacred." personally I believe innocent lives are sacred. I do realized innocent lives are lost in wars, but it has been that way forever, and unfortunatly sometimes it can't be avoided. Abortion can easily be avoided. Unless it was rape, incest or possible loss of the mothers life, it should be avoided. Also, I hate when people say restricting abortion rights is restricting rights for woman. Nobody should have the right to kill, woman or man. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 11:55:00 PM
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that makes a certain amount of sense, i suppose. but wouldn't you say that it's wrong to judge whether someone deserves to live or not? i mean, assuming you take the bible as truth. "judge not lest ye be judged." surely if all humans are sinful and unworthy of god's grace, we aren't in any place to judge anyone else, are we? what was that quote about removing the beam from your own eye before helping your brother remove the splinter from his?
if course, you don't take the bible as undeniable truth, that's a different story. |
death to false metal. |
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anthony1832
Try A Little Harder
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 12:07:48 AM
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| Personally, im not a big bible fan, i am more along the lines of the wiccan rede "An it harm none, do what ye will." with the exception of people who have obviously broken this belief. Which is my own personal spin-off of that law. I personally try to live by that law, and thats why i would never join the military, be an executioner, or support a girlfriend/spouses abortion. You make a good point when u say, abortions will happen regardless if it is legal or not. I think what needs to change is not the laws, but the maturity of the general public. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 12:32:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
Pants Happy, you asshole, don't mention Calvinists unless you can spell it right. And if your beliefs, religion, morality, ethics, or whatever you call it gives you the right to say that ANYONE else in History is wrong, then tell me why anyone who is a Christian is never allowed to voice their opinion that others are wrong in their thinking, without being attacked and called bigots etc? I'm sick and tired of being one of an extreme minority on this board who everyone else feels free to insult. Do I insult, attack and nag, making sarcastic comments and references about liberal-minded people on this board? NO.
And Dan P.: "if you're against abortion, you're against death penalty and this war. even if you say you aren't, and even if you think you aren't, you are. by virtue of the fact that you believe life is sacred, you are. anti-abortion = anti-war."
Don't you FUCKING tell me what I believe.
resulting to name calling? not turning the other cheek, are we? jesus would disagree with you there! nothing says reaching like attacking the spelling. oh, wait, you spelled my name wrong, therefore, you must also be wrong. hypocrite.
first of all, i never said any of that, let alone call any religious group or person on this board bigoted. that's just what you perceived because of your insecurity in your belief in god. i actually said of anthony that i don't disagree completely...meaning there is at least some common ground. if you actually look at what i said, there were only 3 rare cases that i viewed as exceptions. the other part was aimed at ->ultra conservatives<-, and my last post at people who's life goal is to bring up abortion at every turn, applicable or not. not their religion. i may have attacked how every shit an ultra conservative politician takes is a prophecy from heaven, but not how every religion is shit.
if you would like to talk about attacking people's opinions, anthony's post effectively attacked almost every post/person on this thread by implying that anyone who doesn't support bush is a baby killer, no voicing an opinion there. you disagreed with what my opinion was, and how dare you disagree with me? how dare you attack me? no hypocricy there. you should have your free will taken away so you can't disagree. hey Muskrat, i disagree with what you said, you christian.
so you like to play some kind of religion card, vs a race one? just so you know Muskrat, I AM (or was) A CONFIRMED CHRISTIAN. and from that i learned that christians ALWAYS voice their opinions on EVERY topic, right or wrong, whether you like it or not, to every end of the earth. they don't have opinions. they just have "facts" in the form of evangelizing.
and talk about making a blanket statement that whole peoples are wrong. during one of my classes we had a (very rare) Q & A with one of our priests (my favorite one, father anthony, who i had a very real connection to), and when asked about other religions and going to heaven, he implied that only christians could go by touting the "the only way is through jesus" line like a broken record, even if the hypothetical person was the holiest person on earth who hadn't even heard of jesus OR was from a different religion. unless they believed in jesus, they burned in hell with everyone else. but then again, that not opinion, that's fact.
if you want to keep arguing on non-existent points, go ahead, go nuts. this board has been through schisms before, and people have left because of them. however, just to warn you, people will jump in and say "can't everybody just get along?". but believe it or not (and judging by your post, you probably don't), i actually like your posts above many others, as they are shorter, to the point, and coherent (which is lacking on the internet), minus the last one. this board becomes extremely stagnant with fewer people here, and even more so when we all have one opinion. implying that anyone who supported kerry supports abortion as anthony did sure is a different opinion, one that i'll openly disagree with. another that i'll disagree with (and welcome disagreement on) is politics. it affects everything in all of our lives, and even though i hate political discussion with a passion, we need it. we absolutely need it.
you're free to take from this what you want, but know this: this board is like a family, and no matter if your opinion is disagreed with or not, IT IS VALUED, by someone or by all. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 09:38:27 AM
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well well well...it is about time...
http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/5/emw235341.htm
(PRWEB) May 2, 2005 -- Allianz Group published a shareholder proposal on April 20th faulting management for ignoring signs of insurance fraud on 9/11/2001. Allianz carried a significant portion of the insurance coverage on the WTC, and stands to pay a corresponding portion of the $3.5 billion payout currently being litigated in New York. In his proposal, shareholder John Leonard, a California native and a publisher of books on 9/11, pointed to reports that building WTC 7 apparently collapsed by demolition, and for no plausible reason related to the 9/11 attacks. Management replied that it relied on official US government reports which made no mention of such evidence. |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 11:17:00 AM
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This is in regards to Pantshappys last post, obviously if you're listening to a Christian speak on their faith and what they believe then they'll believe that the only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus because that is the basis of their belief which comes from the bible. If you're a Christian then you are a follower of Christ; hence the word, Christian. And if you're a Christian you believe in the bible.
So I'm not at all surprised for anyone to say:
"only christians could go by touting the "the only way is through jesus" line like a broken record, even if the hypothetical person was the holiest person on earth who hadn't even heard of jesus OR was from a different religion. unless they believed in jesus, they burned in hell with everyone else"
John 14:6 says "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
Obviously if someone doesn't believe the bible then they won't believe what this says. But again, it makes sense for Christians to believe this is the way.
If it's not the way then I would like to hear other ways. I always hear of how Christians say you have to get to heaven but I never hear anyone else say no, this is the way. Surely our "good deeds" won't get us there. Just because we have good deeds doesn't mean we don't have sin. If heaven is completely without sin then how do we enter because we are all filled with sin. If Christ hasn't paid the price for all sin then who has? I would love to hear someone else’s take on it. Even the so called rightesnous of the "holiest person on earth" is still like filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord. Our best second here isn't good enough. And if you don't believe Christ died a horrific death for everyone, not just the elect few which some people believe, but for all men then who has?
Probably the most famous or most recognized verse in the bible states that "For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
He didn't offer his Son for the elect few or the predestined. He was offered up for the whole WORLD. If you believe at all in the bible then that’s tough to argue. And obviously if someone doesn't believe in what the bible says then this doesn't mean much to them.
And Muskrat, you're refering to Matthew 19:24, "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 12:45:37 PM
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i have always wondered at the church's interpretation of what "the only way to the father is through the son" means. i guess, in it's most literal sense, it means "believe in jesus or go to hell." but let's say that someon doesn't hold jesus of nazareth to be the savior, but holds all he teaches to be true. jesus was big on love. in fact, when you consider his sacrifice (both of being crucified and being born of flesh) you might go so far as to say that jesus was love. now that passage can be interpreted that the only way to heaven is through love. that makes a lot more sense to me, and that's the way i interpreted it when i first read it.
of course, if it is true that the only way to heaven is believing in jesus, then that, in a way, relieves me greatly, because now i can do as i please, since i'm going to hell anyway. if there is no absolution for someone who doesn't believe in christ, there is nothing holding me back from stealing, lying, and killing. it's good to know that i can kill whoever displeases me, because i'm going to hell anyway. obviously, i won't do any of those things, because it sort of goes against the way i think i should behave. |
death to false metal. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 1:53:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jiyra
quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
MOSES (yeah, deliverer of the Israelites, Ten Commandments Moses) had a speech impediment for crying out loud.
how in the world could you possibly know that? did someone write Moses' biography? Bush doesn't have an impediment, he's inarticulate, there is a difference. also, guitarispimp, please don't tell me you actually believe IQ has anything to do with political beliefs-or religious beliefs, just to get that one out of the way.
Jiyra, I never said anything relating IQ to religious beliefs. However, I DO believe that IQ is an extremely good indicator of the very thing it attempts to measure: intelligence. I also believe that the population with the higher IQ average can make a better decision on who should run the country. This is because (this is a generalization, so take it as one) the smarter person tends to be more educated, and the better educated tend to make better choices, simply because they know more about the world. It's scientific fact that the brain gets more developed by using it. Don't use it, don't develop it and get smarter. I don't know about you, but I'd trust someone who uses their brain more than someone who doesn't. Barring statistical anomalies such as corrupt individuals/whack-jobs, you cannot coherently argue against the fact that the smarter population is more capable of picking a leader than the less gifted individuals.
On a side note, I was reading something about the American population and intelligence, and they had surveyed people from all over the U.S. on questions about their world. Some people gave remarkably ignorant answers, like people thinking the world population is 1 million. Also in Super Size Me, the Mc Donald's documentary, an overwhelming number of kids knew who Ronald McDonald was and did not know who Bush was. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 2:12:48 PM
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well well well...it is about time...
http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/5/emw235341.htm
(PRWEB) May 2, 2005 -- Allianz Group published a shareholder proposal on April 20th faulting management for ignoring signs of insurance fraud on 9/11/2001. Allianz carried a significant portion of the insurance coverage on the WTC, and stands to pay a corresponding portion of the $3.5 billion payout currently being litigated in New York. In his proposal, shareholder John Leonard, a California native and a publisher of books on 9/11, pointed to reports that building WTC 7 apparently collapsed by demolition, and for no plausible reason related to the 9/11 attacks. Management replied that it relied on official US government reports which made no mention of such evidence. |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 2:20:01 PM
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In response to Dan P, I don't see how someone can hold all of Jesus' teachings to be true but not believe in who he says he is? Sure, he taught a lot about how you should live and what things you should or shouldn't do but he also taught that you are to follow him and that he is the way, the truth, and the life. How can someone pick and choose which part to believe? If you can believe part of it then why isn't the rest true as well? It's like if he says you are to love one another then you may believe that. But if he says he is the Messiah and he is laying his life down for the sins of man and that if you believe in him you'll have eternal life then why is that part hard to believe? In my opinion, "the only way to the father is through the son" means just that. I believe that in it's literal sense. I also agree with you and believe Jesus is love. But he doesn't say that is how you get to heaven. He says believe in him and follow him and you'll have eternal life.
Please, someone, tell me their idea on how we get to heaven. Seems like people are more worried about refuting what the bible says instead of giving their belief and stating their belief on how we will ever acheive such a goal. If I can give my reasons then surely someone else can give theirs. And surely there is more to life than just this. What's next?
It's obvious where I stand on this. I haven't waffled and I've given reasons for why I believe certain things. I want to see someone put up a valid reason why this is all bogus. No one has came out and said no, this is the way and here is were it is written. I'm not interested in hearing someone say they don't believe in the bible. I want to know why and what it is that they do believe in and why they believe it.
But this is way off the initial Bush post.
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:16:19 PM
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Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:24:19 PM
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If you post something saying I'm an asshole then I really could care less. Your opinion of me means nothing. But I'm not narrow-minded for choosing to believe in something. I openly asked for other ways and other beliefs. I wouldn't call that being narrow-minded. Nor have I said that everyone here is an asshole if they believe something other than what I beleive.
But I'm glad you posted that. That just reiterates my point. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:27:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth
If you post something saying I'm an asshole then I really could care less. Your opinion of me means nothing. But I'm not narrow-minded for choosing to believe in something. I openly asked for other ways and other beliefs. I wouldn't call that being narrow-minded. Nor have I said that everyone here is an asshole if they believe something other than what I beleive.
What makes you think that was directed to you? It wasn't directed to anyone on this board, it was something I came across and it comically expresses one of my issues with Bush (this is still a thread about Bush, right?)
But, I must say, if you get to quote the bible, then I get to quote Dr. Seuss. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:34:52 PM
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I thought it was directed at me because it came right after my post and you didn't specify who it was to. And I wanted to respond to someone who I felt had called me a narrow-minded asshole. I think that deserves a respone.
And yes, this thread started off about Bush. I was responding to something someone else said. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:39:37 PM
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well, it's really a judgement call, and the two statements have nothing to do with each other. his advice on how to treat people and how to conduct yourself seems like a really great idea. love, honesty, compassion, understanding. these are things that sound about right for any type of relationship with another person. and i say yes to that. i don't really see what it has to do with his claims to be the son of an almighty god. i think that claim sounds a little out there, honestly. and i don't think i at all believe that. but, regardless of who the man claims to be, his teachings on life are wise. it really doesn't even matter whether he is the son of god or just some dude. he had some good points about things.
the tough thing about being a man of faith is that it seems like when you give people your opinion, it comes off as overly righteous and arrogant, and people start arguing. but the second you waver under other people's arguments, you get blasted for not being strong in your faith. it seems really unfair. as frustrated as i get sometimes arguing this sort of thing with people of faith, i have to remind myself that there's something to be said for steadfast belief under pressure. |
death to false metal. |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:48:58 PM
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Dan P, I completely understand what you're talking about in regards to faith and experience this all the time. Some may even say that people who believe a certain way are a narrow-minded asshole. I have tried not to be arrogant or come across as my belief is the only way. I've only put out there what I believe and why. And I've openly asked for others to post theirs.
I like getting in to debates with Dan P which is who I was responding to in my other post. While we are obviously very different we also have some common ground as well. While I try to see your view it seems you also try to see mine and for that you have nothing but my respect. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:50:38 PM
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Muskrat, i was indeed lacking any tact/wasn't very clear, i'm sorry about that. i understand completely about emotional subjects, as my most post was much the same: pent up anger at politicians and how they affect the us.
quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
He gave them the riches that they have, if that's what you meant.
that is what i meant.
Kenneth, my thought was that since other religions serve god, and since jesus IS god according to catholics, you both serve and believe in jesus if you believe in and serve the father, even if it is not apparent to you because the three are all one in god. however, the conflicting part was that if you don't "actually" believe in jesus, your way is barred, hence the arrogance that only christians can go to heaven. and if we (different religions) all believe in the same thing, why persecute each other? why the crusades? as for the holiest person on earth, doesn't that in itself mean that he/she is the one that does god's will more completely than anyone else, loves more than anyone else, get's the message across better than anyone else, and knows (although they haven't heard of him) god better than anyone else? aka his greatest servant? and if they have never even heard of jesus, by no fault of their own, how is that a fault of theirs that they can be punished for?
and if the dogma of the church is such that when the pope concentrates in prayer and lets the holy spirit enter his body, he is infallible, thus the church is certainly infallible. i've never heard the argument said that when one reads the bible, their intrepretation is infallibe, as we are all humans. if that were true, then either ALL religions based on the bible are infallible (which doesn't make sence, since they all think they're the "right" religion), or none are. since humans are themselves fallible, doesn't that mean that they can interpret the bible wrong, make mistakes in aspects of it's understanding, have the wrong books in the bible, translate wrong, or just simply not understand the message properly? if so, can the church be wrong with its sale of indulgences? could it have been right in its schism?
as for your questions to dan:
one Can pick and choose which parts they believe; simply because one part is true or "true" to you, that do Not imply that all statements are true. that's where logic becomes the most hated enemy of the church. and about making up the religion, there was religion long before jesus came into the world, during, and there are and will be many after.
my thought is that religion is an invention of man as a control over himself, to keep all of the chaos in check, much as another system of laws, and to benefit mankind as a whole, which, for example is what loving one another does and achieves. we don't go around killing each other because our religion says we'd burn in hell, and that just wouldn't benefit mankind or its growth.
what is faith anyway? believing in something that you don't know exists or is real, something that has no physical proof, something untestable? you're supposed to believe in god because it says so in the bible, but wait, who wrote the bible? god did. circular logic is circular logic.
saying that if you don't believe in something that we -cannot- test or you go to hell is not only the ultimate scare tactic (something the church is very intimate with), it's the greatest scam. if i say to someone "show me that god exists and i will believe you" means that they'll reply citing faith, but faith is founded on that which cannot be proved, thus it is unfounded.
the bible is full of contridictions, wheter you believe so or not. one simple search reveals much:
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm
also, one of my favourites:
>Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who
>dispenses advice
>to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she
>said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an
>abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under
any
>circumstance.
>The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by
>a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well
>as informative:
>
>
>Dear Dr. Laura:
>
>Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding
>God's Law. I
>have learned a great deal from your show, and try to
>share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone
>tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind
>them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.
>End of debate.
>
>I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some
>of the other specific laws and how to follow them.
>
>1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I
>know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem
is
>my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I
>smite them?
>
>2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
>Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
>price for her?
>
>3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
>her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is,
>how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take
>offence.
>
>4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
>female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
>friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
>Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
>
>5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
>35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
>to kill him myself?
>
>6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
>abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
>homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
>
>7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
>have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
>glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle
>room here?
>
>8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
>around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
>19:27. How should they die?
>
>9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
>me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
>
>10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
>different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
>garments made of two different kinds of thread cotton/polyester
>blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
>necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
>together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to
>death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep
>with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)
>
>I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident
>you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is
>eternal and unchanging.
>Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
>Jack
i'll just end this by saying i'm not trying to change anyone's mind, i'm just stating my thoughts since i was asked. i mean no offense, however offending my thoughts may be. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 4:53:34 PM
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rubylith, i have to go to work soon, but i'll read your article later.
otherwise, Kenneth, keep on posting. i really do love reading different views. |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 5:02:21 PM
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PantsHappy, I do believe Jesus is God. He is also man. He is the God/man. But Jesus also prayed to God. But they are all the same in a sense also. This one is kind of hard to explain. I believe God is a spirit but Jesus is God in human form. He came to bring us to God or Himself so that we may know Him. But someone had to take away our sins and Jesus, the God/man, did this so that we may stand before God the father without sin. So if someone doesn't believe in what Jesus did then that is like calling God a liar. And it dimishes the pain and suffering He went through for us.
I clearly state that these our my views and my beliefs only. I do not impose these on others here. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 5:04:32 PM
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i know you don't, which is why your posts are so interesting to read.
anyway, i really do have to go to work. later. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 8:16:21 PM
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| the trinity always confused me. so if jesus was god in human form, present on earth, and he was praying to good, and called out to god on the cross, who exactly was he praying and calling out to? himself? it would make more sense if jesus was an archangel of some kind, michael, for example, in human form. then "son of god" takes on a new meaning. not son literally. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 10:18:52 PM
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The Trinity thing was much easier to understand the first time around when the egyptians did it.
Anyway I am away from the boards a few days and then it takes me a day of reading to just catch up. I think people would be a lot better off in discussing anything from abortion to war with religous beliefs left out. If you're sole moral obstacle against something is that it conflicts with a system of beliefs you hold then there is no point in offering that up as an arguement. In fact it's the most illogical, irrational thing I've ever heard of.
The founding principal of pretty much all ethical thought is that if it hurts other people then it's probably not a good thing to do. As humans that's pretty much all we've been able to come up with as a guide for morals. So when you're faced with a tough moral decision such a abortion it can be hard to know what to do. The question of when does life start and all that. I think though you should all ask yourself a simple question. If you were in a room with thousands fertilized eggs or fetus' and there was a fire and you had the choice between saving all the eggs or one of your loved ones like a child or whatever what would you choose?
Then comes the question of what will inflict more harm on concious beings having an unwanted child or not? Sure we have thousands of people daily having babies that they can't take care of. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone here the world is overpopulated. Just consider that it does less harm for both the parents and the potential child for them to not continue the fetus' development. I mean having a child can be a great strain and if fact it has "ruined" peoples life.
Now as to the comments people made about if you are against abortion you better be against the war... Ya you better damn well not be voting for Bush if you are all about keeping the sanctity of life. People dying can not be stopped, because well were all mortal. However people killing other human beings could be drastically reduced. It's absolutely illogical to say that life is sacred and then turn to say that war is ok. I'm sorry killing thousands of innocent people makes someone far more evil then say killing a fetus. It makes no fucking sense that anyone would say that they are pro-bush because they are pro life. Because he wants to save some fetus' you let him kill innocent people. You bastard! That applies to anyone who does that and no one else so don't think it was directed at you.
The biggest thing though is that I don't believe that someone can provide proving moral or ethical judgement to institute a law against abortion without religous beliefs being used as the gospel law they are. If based off of the specific principals that uphold ethical thought anyone thinks they can show that without a doubt that abortion is ethically wrong I would love to hear the arguement. That is why I agree with the courts standing ruling that the decision should be left to the hands of those people making the decision and not the state. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 10:38:12 PM
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this quote from the bible seems to contridict everything about christianity:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 09:27:56 AM
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I'm not sure how James 2:24 contradicts everything about Christianity. It stats you are "justified" by works. It doesn't say you are saved by works. Being jusftified by works and being saved by works are not the same thing.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
http://www.housetohouse.com/hth/biblequestions/archive/question0066.htm
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 10:37:56 AM
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That verse in James is easier to understand when read in context:
"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Our faith is shown through our works. But we may be justified by His works (namely, His sacrifice on the cross for us), not ours.
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"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 10:45:45 AM
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| Which, if it wasn't readily apparent, means I disagree with the web page in Kenneth's link. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 11:09:38 AM
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I just found that link and posted it because I really didn't feel like trying to explain it. I've grown weary of this and that seemed like it compared the differences of the two verses good enough for me. I've stated why I believe the way I do and now... I'm spent. Anyone can read anything they want and interpret it anyway they want. This could go on for days and days so we're all really just banging our heads against the wall.
The good news is we all love TR's music. So while we can all disagree on politics, religion, and yada, yada, yada. We all can come back to the fact that TR is awesome and thats really why we come to this site in the first place.
Btw... speaking of yada, yada, yada: Seinfeld is the greatest sitcom of all time but I guess thats for another time and another thread. So I digress... |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 3:29:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
Zach, our ethics or moral code, wherever we get them from, make us who we are. My reason for taking them from my faith is every bit as valid as your reason from taking them from a lack thereof.
But we've had this conversation before.
Yes, but my point is that you have no call to even begin to say that someone else should follow your code of ethics or morals when the only thing you have to base them off of is religion. So in a case of abortion you could say that abortion is wrong and feel free to voice your opinion, but I find that unless you can prvide a concrete moral arguement against it then don't try to make it illeagal. Like I was saying if someone wants to give an arguement of how abortion is morally wrong other than a religous based one fine. Just don't push a religous based moral on someone else because you damn well wouldn't want someone elses pushed on you. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 3:46:41 PM
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it makes sense that faith and works go hand in hand for someone who claims to have faith in jesus's teachings. the teachings of jesus imply works. compassion for the downtrodden, the homeless, and the hungry, for example. i contend that a man of true faith in jesus would do deeds that embody his teachings. after all, if you have faith in jesus, you have faith in his teachings, and he has teachings regarding works of charity and caring. to say "i believe in jesus christ" and yet behave as though you don't is hollow. for instance, someone who believes in christ wouldn't beat a homeless man. why, i could say i believe in jesus and never help anyone but myself. does this, then mean i'm saved? if so, then anyone can just say the magic words.
of course, there are those who perform deeds that embody the teachings of christ, and yet do so not out of belief in him. but that's a whole other can of worms. |
death to false metal. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 9:48:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
Zach, our ethics or moral code, wherever we get them from, make us who we are. My reason for taking them from my faith is every bit as valid as your reason from taking them from a lack thereof.
But we've had this conversation before.
Yes, but my point is that you have no call to even begin to say that someone else should follow your code of ethics or morals when the only thing you have to base them off of is religion... Like I was saying if someone wants to give an arguement of how abortion is morally wrong other than a religous based one fine. Just don't push a religous based moral on someone else because you damn well wouldn't want someone elses pushed on you.
What if I don't want a non-religious based moral pushed on me? Not saying you're the one pushing, either.
Dan P. I actually agreed with that entire post... |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 9:51:46 PM
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Because basically what you're saying is, that "If it's a man-made moral code (assuming it's a good one, try to understand me) and it's openly a man-made one, it's ok. But if it's God's moral code (or a God created by man) it's pointless.
In your opinion, both types of moral code originate from man. Therefore, it shouldn't matter if it came from a religion or not, as long as it's a "good" moral code.
Am I in error? |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 11:59:07 PM
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Well if it's a good moral code I don't care who said it. The thing is judging the good moral code. For the most part I think the bible and most religions tend to in the majority teach good morals and sound pricipals on ways to live a happy life (although most leave out one of the most spiritual aspects for me, but that's another topic). I mean the Dali Lama has had some graet things to say about happiness and ways to live.
Now the tricky part is that I have people tell me that certain things are wrong. Like for example homosexuality, and abortion etc. Then when I ask them why they are wrong what it comes down to is god said no or it's unatural (the natural comment never makes any sense to me cause then I usually spend a half hour or so telling them how we aren't living a "natural" way in the first place, and then they tell me I'm satan). However I find it really ridiculous that many people have no other answer then god said no.
If someone wants to think that then that's fine by me, but I don't think we as a society should make moral judgements or laws based off of religous doctrines. Now like I said if someone wants to have a discussion on abortion citing to me why they think that it should be wrong without just telling me that god said no then I'm all up for that.
With ethics it all comes down to the fact that we can agree that murder is wrong. Not because god said so, but because we both can reason out that we would not like to be murdered and it's not fair that we should be able to kill others. We also can agree that theft is wrong because it really hurts the person being stolen from and we wouldn't want to be stolen from.
Abortion and topics like that though get really tricky. I mean sure we can all say well I wouldn't have want to have been aborted (I won't even get in to topics of the self that relates to a much more buddhist thought train with an impermanant self), but at the same time I think it was damn hard growing up and I don't know if I would have wanted to make that journey without two parents who love me and wanted me. That's why I think it's such a complex issue with no clear right or wrong that I think it should be how it is with individuals making the choice.
I think though that's one of the biggest things I've noticed people relying on religion for is giving them morals instead of seeking their own. Like the hard ones like abortion it's much easier to just say hey abortion is wrong because god said so and I believe in god. The problem lies in what I think is false revelation. In that we say god told this guy this and he told us, but at that point it is now hearsay. I think if people were honest with themselves they would realize that god has revealed nothing to them, but they follow others that god has chosen. Anyway I just think that anything that is going to be used as a moral for society or a law of some sort should be arrived at by ethical, logical, rational thought between people in which everyone (or close to it) can agree that something is wrong. Otherwise we have societies that turn to shit. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 01:10:30 AM
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we agree, weird. hahaha.
kenneth, would you not agree that works and faith are but part of one whole? and that for a christian, one doesn't truly exist without the other? not so much that the works are a proof of faith, but rather a result of faith. that seems to be what that verse in james is driving at.
and to bring back up the idea of santity of life in the abortion issue, i think there's a point everyone's missed. or maybe someone did and i wasn't reading carefully enough. anyway, when you illegalize abortion, women will still have them. that's already been mentioned. the difference is, they're no longer safe. there's a danger, and we've seen it before, of reverting to far more unsafe means of aborting a fetus. means that put both the mother and child at risk. putting mothers at risk as well as the fetuses seems to me to run counter to the idea of the sanctity of life. |
death to false metal. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 07:54:21 AM
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| i don't believe in magic. |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 10:26:40 AM
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Dan, yes, I agree with that. You said it better than I could when you said, "not so much that the works are a proof of faith, but rather a result of faith"
Exactly!!!
Once you believe wholly in something and have faith in that then the rest all kind of falls into place; such as works and trying to be who you say you are and live up to the expectations people may have of you because of your faith.
And yes I do believe thats what the verse in James is driving at. Thats why I disagreed with PantsHappy when he stated that that verse contradicted everything regarding Christianity. It doesn't. It actually goes along quite well with my beliefs. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 1:26:55 PM
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As long as we're talking about faith and works, I thought I'd ask some of the faith based peoples on the board a few questions. I don't know exactly what any of you believe so if I make some examples I'm not trying to talk about you or insult you I'm just stating things I've found to be true with the many religous people I've known.
The first thing that bugs me is that there is no church set up on the face of the earth that is anything like the church christ organized on the earth. I mean christ was basically a hippie in my view that walked around and taught people, and performed miracles etc. (if you believe all that). No one does that it's turned into a huge organization that I think is corrupt and has been because it offers people heaven in exchange for money and power.
Secondly I've never heard any church speak out strongly about the real evils of the world. Sure I know the pope spoke out against the war and all that, but really I don't believe that they are confronting the things in this world that makes life so damn hard. Then on top of that like I've stated before there is a huge sect of religous people out supporting wars and presidents who clearly are out to make sure american business intrests are #1 and control the globe. Sure they are ignorant and don't do anything but believe what TV tells them, but it's sickening. All this family values mumbo jumbo, but they don't do anything about the two parents working 40+ hours a week so they can't spend family time and do all that stuff.
I don't know I just wonder what people think about what organized religion is, and what it's doing for people here on earth, because I don't really get the thought of everything will be fine when we make it to that great spaceship in the sky called heaven and everyone will be high. I would rather work for a heaven on earth, and I don't see any religions shooting for that. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 1:47:49 PM
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| alright, i was just trying to clarify that. it seems like when someone says that faith in christ gets you to heaven, it seems like it's generally taken as faith seperate from works, and not faith that entails works. |
death to false metal. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 2:30:47 PM
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| hocus pocus |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 2:59:03 PM
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Well wait a minute, maybe I misunderstood your earlier post. I do believe faith separate from works will get you to heaven. But your works will come as a result of your faith.
Believing Christ is the son of God, he lived as man (human form) without sin, died as the sacrifice for our sin, and was raised on the third day is the essence of the gospel. In my opinion, if you believe that and pray “the sinner’s prayer” then you are saved. You don’t “have” to have works with faith to get to heaven. First and foremost must be faith in Jesus Christ. That alone gives you eternal life. Now, if you are sincere in this then you will want to live for Him and your works will come. And God knows every motive and every sincere heart. One thing you can’t do is fool God. So no, I don’t believe works and faith together get you to heaven. I believe faith in Christ gets you to heaven. You will be rewarded for your works in heaven just like you will be rewarded for your faith in Christ by being allowed to enter into His kingdom.
I’m going to paste something I found online that explains this better. I really don’t have the time to type all this up. I read this carefully and completely agree with this. Take this however you like. And I feel the need to keep on repeating this: this is my belief and in no way am I trying to push this on anyone. I’m only trying to explain why I believe the way I do. If no one wants to read it then thats fine but it's there if anyone would like to.
http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 3:51:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rubylith
hocus pocus
abracadabra! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 8:24:01 PM
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| ok, i guess this is where we disagree then. i'd be willing to say that works are a part of true faith. saying the "sinner prayer" and believing that jesus is god and stuff is a part of the faith, too. but it seems to me that if one believed jesus to be god, he would follow the teaching enough to perform deeds. faith without deeds seems incomplete to me. |
death to false metal. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 03:12:38 AM
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just taking a break from a final project that's due today, just about done...seems like i've been working on it forever.
anyway, i really gotta say that i've never seen a message board be so deep, thoughtful, and objective. i mean really, if all conversations could go like this. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 08:01:49 AM
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Very simple. He's a liar who does not practice what he preaches.
Since when did killing thousands of innocent Iraqis become "good Christian values?" All his talk of unseen enemies, evil, and all this other shit. The guy thinks he's really some kind of weird righteous avenger; only it's really hard to stay righteous when you've got your filthy little fingers in who knows how many fucking pockets. He ("they") has(have) mastered controlling the media; there has never been a administration who has had such a firm grasp around the American medias neck.
I wish I could sit heer and type for a couple of hours, but unlike our President, I have to work now. I'll be back. |
http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 10:48:43 AM
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Dan, I agree partially with you here. I’m willing to say works are apart of true faith also. I think it comes along with faith but I don’t believe you have to have works to inherit eternal life. I also agree that if one believed in God he would follow his teachings and good deeds or works would come due to their commitment to him. If you have to have works to inherit eternal life then how many works must one have? 10? 20? 100? What’s the magic number?
Obviously, I believe the bible is the word of God. I believe in God and believe his words are true so I believe him when he says it is by grace you are saved through Jesus Christ and not by works so that no one may boast by saying hey, look at what I’ve done. It's a gift and we've done nothing to earn it, all we can do is accept it; or not. So in a sense you're not really saved by faith or works; you're saved by "grace" from God. But you have faith in Christ and trust him that you are saved through him. And then works will come by trusting in Christ and seeking to do his will. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 10:51:24 AM
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| bush is the antichrist |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 2:39:57 PM
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| I'm the antichrist! |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 6:18:51 PM
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Just cause I can on here...FUCK YOU MR. PRESIDENT!
So many Christians have such a warped and selfish view of how they should live their lives, and the fear and loathing culminated by this administration and today's frenzied media just helps to further brainfuck them into thinking that everyone who doesn't love America's "democracy" is out to get them. There is no love in politics. According to them, there can't be.
Here's a Bush favorite: Palestine vs. Israel: Hey, Isreal? How 'bout we wall off some people and kill them cause they wanna live in our holy sandbox? Geoge'll go along with that, he loves his GOD. Go fuck yourselves. This is where FAITH plays a negative role in humanity. These people are so sure that that strip of fucking sand is theirs, they're killing, and have killed, for it mercilessly. Does this make sense logically? Surely we know where G-Dub stands on this one, so let's ask the American government during the 1800's! Hey, these natives are in the way of our "Manifest Destiny"...let's kill 75% of them, and show them who's boss! Fuck US! Same shit different century.
And does the goverment even address environmental or societal problems anymore? Is there any push to stop drilling into mountains to dispose of toxic waste? Has there been a mandate telling all these horribly obese Americans to stop pushing their faces full of refined sugar and fucking McDonalds because it's killing them faster than anything in the history of the planet? Does the government warn these people they are breeding into their children predispositions for diabetes, hypertension, obesity, and heart disease?
Then you've got 'ol lady George glad-handing with the tower-crashing fucking Saudis while they hold hands with the oil conglomerates while they lube up our asses with crude and fuck the pennies out of our pockets? Does anyone in this country even know what the Kyoto Protocol is? We turned our backs on Jimmy Carter's energy ideas in favor of a fucking B-movie actor who commited some of the worst atrocities Central and South America have ever seen. FUCK US!
Fucking pharm corps and insurance companies fucking the sick and the elderly out of every retirement fund and social security check. TV feeding you ads for every type of drug to make you feel less sad, be less fat, or give you a fucking 4-hour hard-on. Where's regulation for this shit? Why is this not offensive to "middle America?" Why aren't people saying "Stick your fucking pills up your ass." Always trying to exert the least amount of effort to get the greatest possible effect.
All while the poverty gap grows at a sickening rate; athletes, lawyers, executive bankers, stock brokers, and hip-hop moguls and rock stars make the lion's share of money while we sell advertising space back to them by watching shows about their stupid lives, the excessive homes and expensive cars. We watch the "ugly" let doctors break their noses, pull at their flesh, and suck out their fat while taking Trim-Spa and Xenadrine and eating the same fucking slop we have since we were born and depressing over our pathetically-shaped, atrophied bodies.
Man, I feel great, I am gonna go make myself a cup of chamomile and relax. I love you guys. Peace. |
http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 7:00:53 PM
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The funniest thing of all, you guys (Democractic party/Green Party/any group against Bush), still couldn't beat him in an election. Don't take this as me throwing my support behind Bush, I just find it to be hilarious.
Run a better horse in '08. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 8:42:17 PM
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The reason why Bush wasn't beat is exactly what you just said is that it includes all the green party, democrats, etc. and they weren't one group because like I've said before Kerry was a douche and no one was really behind him just mostly against Bush. What's sad is that there was enough people in this country with enough ignorance to support the guy.
Change will not be voted in... It will be taken in the streets through education, cultural change, and resistance to the US government and their corporate masters always looking for their economic gain. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 10:21:17 PM
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hrw, honestly. that's the most brutal post i've read in a good deal of time. excelsior!
however, i think it's arrogant to call people who voted for bush "ignorant" because the way i read it is "people who don't think and vote as i do must be ignorant, because anyone who knows anything must think as i do. there is no other way." as far as anything that isn't music or videogames goes, i'm about as ignorant as possible. being well versed in ignorance, it would seem like ignorance leads to indecision more than anything else. indecision and apathy. i think that supporting bush is more an application of the same information into different view points. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2005 : 10:38:59 PM
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Then dan I change my opinion to if you voted for Bush you are either ignorant, or complete machiavelian asshole who thinks america should rule the world, and probably has ties to the energy business.
Look I'm not saying everyone has to think like I do. If you support Bush though you either don't know what the fuck he is doing in office and what he's been up to for the last 4 years or you support killing innocent people, and you support the stripping of human rights.
I do agree that ignorance tends to lead to indecision in most cases. However the problem tends to be that these people do not realize their ignorance. They are mostly undereducated (or miseducated I should say) people that work for a living and come home and depend on the media and government officials to inform them on the state of affairs in the world. However since this is done so terribly and with so much propaganda and control factors people don't get a real idea of what's going on. My sister for example would not believe me that we cluster bombed Iraqi cities. According to her we only went after military targets because some retired general who now makes a bunch of dough for being a consultant goes on TV and tells her we have smart bombs and we only attack strictly military targets and we would never shoot at a clearly marked press building of foreign journilists who were reporting what the US was doing there.
I don't know everything even if I sometimes pretend too, but I really think people are being fucked over and they don't know it. They don't spend the time to research into shit, but I have done quite a bit of that myself because I'm a college student who after I take care of the normal daily tasks has no responsibilites. It's the same as anything else dan. Imagine some kid watching MTV and VH1 all day everyday and now thinking he knows a lot about music and then he makes some dumbass statement and someone who has really studied music corrects him. That could be percieved as arrogance too, but I don't think you do it from arrogance. So I don't see why I can't call them ignorant as they most of them obviously are and the rest of them are assholes, because I see no other way around it. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2005 : 5:21:36 PM
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| i suppose your music analogy works, if you claim to have knowledge of world affairs and politics equal to the knowledge someone who studies music has of music. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 11:19:54 AM
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| Well I'm no like Political Scientist, but I've studied some things pretty well. All I know is I definitely have been let in on more things then most people who rely on TV for their news and shape their opinions based off of that. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 6:14:31 PM
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Thanks Dan, I had to let loose. Lot of anguish; came out in nastily written prose. I just can't take it much longer. And I didn't call them "ignorant" per se. It was more implicitly that they are fucking assholes. That's all.
P.S. Dan, as soon as I get the Brooklyn show on DVD, I'll get you a copy, I'm sorry you couldn't make it there, I'd have liked to meet you. It was fucking outstanding. |
http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 06:16:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
[So in a case of abortion you could say that abortion is wrong and feel free to voice your opinion, but I find that unless you can prvide a concrete moral arguement against it then don't try to make it illeagal. Like I was saying if someone wants to give an arguement of how abortion is morally wrong other than a religous based one fine.
The Libertarian Case Against Abortion
To explain and defend our case, LFL argues that:
1. Human offspring are human beings, persons from fertilization.
2. Abortion is homicide -- the killing of one person by another.
3. There is never a right to kill an innocent person. Prenatally, we are all innocent persons.
4. A prenatal child has the right to be in the mother's body. Parents have no right to evict their children from the crib or from the womb and let them die. Instead both parents, the father as well as the mother, owe them support and protection from harm.
5. No government, nor any individual, has a just power to legally depersonify any one of us, born or preborn.
6. The proper purpose of the law is to side with the innocent, not against them.
For details, please read LFL's literature.
NOTE: The founder of L4L, Doris Gordon, is an avowed Athiest. As libertarians, LFL's interest in the abortion debate is in everyone's unalienable rights. LFL's reasoning is philosophical, not religious. Some LFL associates are religious; others, such as Gordon, are atheists.
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teri 
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 08:31:00 AM
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the reason why bush "won" was because he was suppsosed to. Both candidates were cousins and members of skull and bones. Not to mention most of voting machines were owned by DIEBOLD, where the owner specifically said that Bush would win.
it was a sham, a staged election. And even if Kerry won, nothing would have changed. But they knew Bush had to win because of his stance on religion.
our government is more fucked up then you could ever imagine.
don't think voting will ever solve anything. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 5:59:10 PM
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| major leauge sports are all scripted. |
death to false metal. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 8:18:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
quote:
Originally posted by rubylith
hocus pocus
abracadabra!
expelliamus! |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 8:29:05 PM
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| Tericee, it's definitely something that can be debated, but I have problems with people saying it should be ileagal. The first thing is that a fetus is not a human nor does it have the mental cognition to be self concious. It's a tough one and I'm not sure what's right or wrong, but I do know I'm against making it ileagal. Thanks for the other views though besides god said no |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 12:54:46 AM
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| i believe (and correct me if i'm wrong) that biologically speaking it is alive, and of the species homo sapien sapien. to me, that makes it human being. and fetuses are as intert as you might think. |
death to false metal. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 05:39:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i believe (and correct me if i'm wrong) that biologically speaking it is alive, and of the species homo sapien sapien. to me, that makes it human being. and fetuses are as intert as you might think.
I got all except the last few words there. What is intert? |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 06:12:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
The first thing is that a fetus is not a human nor does it have the mental cognition to be self concious.
Of course everyone has their own opinion on whether it should be legal, but I do have a response/rebuttal to two of your assumptions:
1) You say a fetus isn't human. How do you define human?
SYLLABICATION: hu·man
NOUN: 1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens. 2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.
The fusion of a sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and an oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a human being, albeit a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes — the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Here's what one embryologist had to say:
quote:
"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo)." (Keith L. Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human)
If a zygote is a human, then a fetus is also a human. It may not be self-aware, but it's human.
2) I don't think a newborn has the mental cognition to be self aware either, but to kill one is a crime. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 09:04:13 AM
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If you want my worthless opinion, I think shit like abortion and homosexuality are nature's not so subtle ways of trying to level out a population which grows at an incredible rate and consumes and a fucking ghastly disproportionate level.
I think if the world wants to retaliate with abortion, homosexuality, AIDS, and whatnot, then that's what's gotta happen. We don't hold ourselves accountable for what we do to the planet, so I think the planet should have free reign to fuck us up too.
We are a virus, "The Matrix" had that shit on point. |
http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 12:03:49 PM
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| intert - noun. meaning, dan's an idiot who can't spell inert. |
death to false metal. |
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Kenneth
Chatterbox
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 1:04:30 PM
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| I like that explanation Dan. That cracked me up. I knew that was coming. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 1:25:49 PM
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Yes, but I still ask the hypothetical question. If you had the chance to save one thousand fetus' or one person, (a loved one perhaps Fluffy) would you save the fetus' or Fluffy? I don't know about you, but I'd save Fluffy. Maybe you would do it differently, but everyone I've asked this has responded the same way I would. I think that says a lot for our distinction of life.
I don't pretend to know what is morally right or perfectly ethical in this situation because there is a lot to weigh out, and I'm just kind of playing devils advocate, but it should stay legal and that's not even based from me saying it's perfectly fine or whatever I just think it's more harmful to society to have it ileagal.
There were tribes in south america too that made sure people only had 2 children to keep the population down. How would they do this? Well as soon as the third child was born they threw it in the river. It's one of those things that sounds terrible, but in reality was what kept the tribe surrviving as a whole. They knew they couldn't support greater numbers so they kept them down. Is that ethically wrong? Is it wrong for one to die so many others can live? Choosing who lives and who dies is never an easy task. |
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BUSH
