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jsemon2
Yak Addict

USA
920 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2007 :  4:24:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit jsemon2's Homepage  Send jsemon2 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Uhm, is it just me or do almost all 12step or whatever-step programs include at some point admitting that there is a higher power and turning your weakness over to that? What the fuck is up with that?

It is completely psycho to think that you can just hand your problems over to this person who only exist in those that have faith and expect to go away. damn......

OUT FOR LUNCH

dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2007 :  8:43:37 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
when it comes to addiction, whatever fucking works is fine. if admitting there's a god or a "higher power" helps you stop using whatever, than i say do it. it wouldn't be my style exactly, but it works.

death to false metal.
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sciphish
Chatterbox

USA
155 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2007 :  8:52:40 PM  Show Profile  Send sciphish an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Many say that AA is actually run by the illumanati and
other such nefarious folk. Since those are somewhat religious
I guess that makes sense. And if you look at how people can become
dependant on it just as many religions, I think the connection makes sense. But ultimately it's all tied to helping people, so I
think many are afraid to question it.

I'm almost there...
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2007 :  9:21:17 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
yes, yes, the illuminati, of course. i wonder how helping people deal with an addiction fits into their grand scheme for world domination or whatever comic book-style plot they're hatching.

death to false metal.
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sciphish
Chatterbox

USA
155 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2007 :  10:34:03 PM  Show Profile  Send sciphish an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Hey man, what you don't know CAN hurt you.

I agree it seems silly. Buy I'd think it more silly
to think that things like that don't happen.

I dunno, be a skeptic.

I'm almost there...
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Arthen
Alien Abductee

USA
4845 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2007 :  11:54:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll wait for an internet video with cheesy electronic music about the Illuminati and AA to come out.

Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  03:47:12 AM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i agree, what you don't know can hurt you. that being said, you don't know that the illuminati control AA. and the burden of proof is yours. making assumptions or claiming to know without actually knowing can hurt you and anyone who believes you.

death to false metal.
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tericee
Alien Abductee

USA
2579 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  06:41:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit tericee's Homepage  Send tericee an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I would think that by turning their addiction over to a higher power it helps them to a) forgive themselves and b) get past the "I can't do it by myself" thing.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:
quote:
Acceptance of a Higher Power
A primary tenet of 12-step recovery requires a member to surrender willful self-reliance (a purported characteristic of afflicted persons), to adopt the practice of reliance on God, or another "Higher Power" of the member's own understanding. Proponents of twelve-step programs allege that agnostics and even atheists can be helped by the program, as a member’s concept of a "Higher Power" may originate (and/or remain) with the 12-step group itself. With time, any other entity, thing(s) or object(s) that aid a member in accepting their powerlessness over their problem, are claimed to become the "Higher Power" that will help them to recover. It is colloquially stated that any Power perceived as being greater than oneself will do, provided the power is not any other, single individual, or one's own unaided will.

The success of Twelve-step groups in aiding in recovery of addictive illnesses is an argument of significance in some parts of the United States, where the criminal justice system has ordered 12-step group participation to convicted felons as well as inmate addicts as a condition of parole or shortened sentences. U.S. judges have often required attendance at AA meetings as a condition of probation or parole or as an element of a sentence for defendants convicted of a crime. The New York Court of Appeals ruled in Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d 674 (1996) that doing so compromises the Establishment Clause of the United States Constitution on the grounds that A.A. practices and doctrine are (in the words of the district court judge who wrote the decision) "unequivocally religious". The Supreme Court of the United States denied certiorari and allowed the New York court's decision to stand.

Critics of the 12-step programs, however, often hold that this reliance is ineffective, and offensive or inapplicable to atheists and others who do not believe in a salvific deity. Other critics see forms of authoritarian mind control in the 12 step approach.

Some critics state that 12-step groups are religious in nature. The only authorized literature in most 12-step groups is their own publications. The members of 12-step groups make the distinction that the groups are spiritual, and not religious; members of 12-step groups are also members of a wide variety of religious bodies. Nearly every meeting begins with the Serenity Prayer, a prayer addressed to "God." The Big Book states that its "main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem." [3]

Some critics also question the idea of giving up on self-reliance, which can be seen as a form of idealized despair. Secular alternatives to twelve-step programs, such as Rational Recovery, are for this reason in many ways opposite to the twelve-step process. Others, such as YES Recovery, acknowledge a debt to the twelve-steps movement but do not have a culture of belief in God.



teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee

South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  09:22:38 AM  Show Profile  Send Hopeful Rolling Waves an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I dont like it, but we've a country full of addictive personalities. A shame these people can't sort themselves out without the help of a cultish group. Keep on boozin'!

http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  12:09:29 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i'm very much a "do-it-yourself-er" when it comes to my varied and troubling vices. although perhaps "don't-do-it-yourself-er" would be more accurate.

death to false metal.
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque

Kazakhstan
1099 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  2:06:14 PM  Show Profile  Send therippa an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Penn & Teller did a good episode of Bullshit! about this...you can find it on the torrent sites.



Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee!
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jsemon2
Yak Addict

USA
920 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  2:11:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit jsemon2's Homepage  Send jsemon2 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
so did southpark.

OUT FOR LUNCH
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Infant Eyes
Try A Little Harder

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  4:20:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had a conversation once about a drug and alcohol counselor about this very subject and he had a pretty good explanation for it. He said that one guy he knew was a complete atheist and so he was having a hard time doing the higher power thing and all that. So he finally made his higher power the doorknob. Because he said if he didn't go open the door and leave at night he would stay in and not drink rather than go out and get trashed, because he knew he couldn't handle going out without succumbing to drinking.

I personally think that it's a small point to get past if you're serious about stopping drinking and getting help for your problem. Why would any sensible person waste their time worrying about their group having slight religious leanings when they have big problems like not being able to stop drinking alcohol?
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  5:12:06 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i agree with infant eyes. gasp.

i understand the objection, though. i'm not entirely keen on some "higher power" solving my goddamn problems. let's suppose that a higher power does fix me or whatever. i'm still weak because i couldn't or wouldn't do it myself. i also think, insofar as we accept the meaning of "higher power" to be god, that god wouldn't just fix you. it's largely believed that god gaves us free will. that is, he gave us the strength to stand but the freedom to fall. to remove that freedom of will would reduce god to a master of puppets (pullin' the strings, yeah!) any action made by his creation would be meaningless because they would do it not because they wanted to, but because they had no choice. it would say nothing of goodness.

but all that aside, "higher power" doesn't mean god. in fact, if you don't admit a higher power, you're essentially saying you are the most powerful. and i'm pretty sure that's not the case.

here's a thought: what if you named alcohol your higher power?

death to false metal.
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jsemon2
Yak Addict

USA
920 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  5:48:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit jsemon2's Homepage  Send jsemon2 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i just think it ignorant not to work on the person personally. if you truly want to stop, you can.; i personally believe anyone can do anything that set their mind to (with physical limitations). now getting help from others is definitely something that will make the process easier, but a "higher power"? i understand addiction, OCD, etc, etc. but in all these things you have to overcome yourself. it isn't a god that got you to do what you did to overcome, it is YOU THAT OVERCAME. it isn't some high power that is preventing you from coming to, it is you.


OUT FOR LUNCH
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Arthen
Alien Abductee

USA
4845 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  5:52:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look at it like a Hindu might.

"Higher Power" could simply mean universal spirit or soul, and that each person has a soul which is a part of the whole(the atman). In that regard you are calling on yourself to help yourself, the person may not just think about it in those terms. Perhaps the addict believes that God truly is helping them, when it might be their own resolve simply aided by the belief that God is helping or that the Higher Power is playing a role. Some people cannot simply say, I'm going to use my own will power to overcome this, but by investing pyschologically into a "Higher Power" they are able to to, even though, again, it might be their own resolve working.

Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com
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jsemon2
Yak Addict

USA
920 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  6:09:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit jsemon2's Homepage  Send jsemon2 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
yeah, i understand that ben but i dont like looking at it that way.

it is the same as the argument of "stating there is no truth, you are actually stating what truth is by saying truth is that there is no truth.

OUT FOR LUNCH
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2007 :  6:11:40 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
that may not be the case. sometimes you can't stop yourself from doing something. you sad ocd, and that's a perfect example. you can't stop yourself from the obsession (the mental part) or the compulsion (the physical act resulting from the obession.) it isn't a matter of will power in that instance. you do it and you have no choice. you're not in control. now, you can say "i can't live like this, i have a problem, i need to see someone." and yeah, that's how you help yourself. but you can't just be like "i'm not going to think that i just hit someone on the road, and i'm not going to go check 5 times." it doesn't work that way. phyiscal addiction in similar in extreme cases.

death to false metal.
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Ranting Thespian
Fluffy-Esque

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  05:02:29 AM  Show Profile  Send Ranting Thespian an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Awwwwwwwwww . . . the cookies are all the way over there. Anything that takes 12 steps ins't worth it. Heh, 12 steps! Get it. 12 steps! Hahahaha *gets hit*

D'OH!



Well, with my thoughts there is no higher power. There is no lower power either. Everyone is equal, as well as everything. The universe that we can see, and the univers that we can't.

So I guess I fail the 12 step program. I guess my rip off of My Name Is Earl "reality style" show is over.

Not communicating can hurt more than any word that can be said -

Nick
-the Ranting Thespian
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Infant Eyes
Try A Little Harder

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  4:07:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.



here's a thought: what if you named alcohol your higher power?


Alcohol is my higher power.
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  4:35:45 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i disagree. not everyone is equal. the notion really bothers me. i don't know why a lot of people shy away from it. not all opinions are right or worth the same amount, there is such a thing as a stupid question. not all children are special. some people are smarter than others. some people are better at the things they do than others. also, i would suggest that certain rich government officials wield more "power" in most practical senses of the word than some every day schlub. i think the "everyone's equal" approach to looking at the world is a rationalization. a defense mechanism designed to shield them from the realization that they're fucked in one way or another.

if god hates me enough to smite me with a child, i refuse to coddle him about things like this. inflating a child's sense of worth is just as bad as deflating it. i was always told that there is always going to be someone better than me, stronger than me, richer than me. i was also told not to get frustrated, because to surpass those people, i all i have to do is worked harder and practice more, because the playing field isn't, and won't ever be, level. that's a lesson i'd like to pass on to my kid.

death to false metal.
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tericee
Alien Abductee

USA
2579 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2007 :  05:17:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit tericee's Homepage  Send tericee an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I agree that kids shouldn't be coddled, Dan. Your posted reminded me of the stuff I've been reading in the last couple of years about parents and other people in kids lives trying to hide the truth and not make kids feel bad...

quote:
When it comes to correcting papers and grading tests, purple is emerging as the new red.

"If you see a whole paper of red, it looks pretty frightening," said Sharon Carlson, a health and physical education teacher at John F. Kennedy Middle School in Northampton. "Purple stands out, but it doesn't look as scary as red."

That's the cue pen makers and office supply superstores say they have gotten from teachers as the $15 billion back-to-school retail season kicks off. They say focus groups and conversations with teachers have led them to conclude that a growing number of the nation's educators are switching to purple, a color they perceive as "friendlier" than red.

As a result, Paper Mate introduced purple to its assortment of blue, red, and green X-Tend pens and increased distribution of existing purple pens this school year. Barry Calpino, Paper Mate's vice president and general manager, estimated that the Bellwood, Ill., company boosted production of purple pens by at least 10 percent. He said purple will now be a standard color in all its new product lines.

Office superstores such as Staples and OfficeMax also are making a splash with purple pens, stocking more of them, adding purple to multicolor packs, and selling all-purple packs. By comparison, Staples did not stock any exclusively purple pen packs last year and it hardly had any purple pens in its stores two years ago, said Robert George, the Framingham chain's senior vice president of general merchandise. Now, he said, sales of purple pens are growing at a faster clip than pen sales overall.

A mix of red and blue, the color purple embodies red's sense of authority but also blue's association with serenity, making it a less negative and more constructive color for correcting student papers, color psychologists said. Purple calls attention to itself without being too aggressive. And because the color is linked to creativity and royalty, it is also more encouraging to students.

"The concept of purple as a replacement for red is a pretty good idea," said Leatrice Eiseman, director of the Pantone Color Institute in Carlstadt, N.J., and author of five books on color. "You soften the blow of red. Red is a bit over-the-top in its aggression."

For office supply stores, color and fashion trends spell opportunity and risk. The trends allow them to freshen up staid old categories such as pens and markers, fueling sales. But getting a trend wrong -- betting on purple pens when teachers and students are buying green, for example -- can cost them sales during a critical retail period.

Red's legacy as the color used in correcting papers and marking mistakes goes back to the 1700s, the era of the quill pen. In those days, red ink was used by clerks and accountants to correct ledgers. From there, it found its way into teachers' hands.

But two or three decades ago, an anti-red sentiment began surfacing among teachers. Since then, no one color had emerged as red's replacement.

"I do not use red," said Robin Slipakoff, who teaches second and third grades at Mirror Lake Elementary School in Plantation, Fla. "Red has a negative connotation, and we want to promote self-confidence. I like purple. I use purple a lot."

Sheila Hanley, who teaches reading and writing to first- and second-graders at John F. Kennedy Elementary School in Randolph, said: "Red is definitely a no-no. But I don't know if purple is in."

Hanley said a growing contingent of her colleagues is using purple. They prefer it to green and yellow because it provides more contrast to the black or blue ink students are asked to write in. And they prefer it to orange, which they think is too similar to red.

But aside from avoiding red, Hanley said she is not sure color matters much. At times, she uses sticky notes rather than writing on a child's paper. What's important, she said, is to focus on how an assignment can be improved rather than on what is wrong with it, she said.

Ruslan Nedoruban, who is entering seventh grade at his Belmont school, said red markings on his papers make him feel "uncomfortable."

His mother, Victoria Nedoruban, who is taking classes to improve her English, said she thinks papers should be corrected in red.

"I hate red," she said. "But because I hate it, I want to work harder to make sure there isn't any red on my papers."

Red has other defenders. California high-school teacher Carol Jago, who has been working with students for more than 30 years, said she has no plans to stop using red. She said her students do not seem psychologically scarred by how she wields her pen. And if her students are mixing up "their," "there," and "they're," she wants to shock them into fixing the mistake.

"We need to be honest and forthright with students," Jago said. "Red is honest, direct, and to the point. I'm sending the message, 'I care about you enough to care how you present yourself to the outside world.' "



A man was at a little league baseball game...
quote:

...His son's team was winning 24-7 as the game entered the last inning. When he looked up at the scoreboard, he noticed that the score read 0-0. Naturally, he inquired as to what happened -- was the scoreboard perhaps broken? -- and was told that the winning team's coach asked the scoreboard keeper to change the score. He and some of the parents were concerned that the kids on the losing team felt humiliated. In order to ensure that the kids losing by a lopsided score would not feel too bad, the score was changed.

As is happening throughout America, "compassion" trumped all other values.

Truth was the first value compassion trashed. In the name of compassion, the adults in charge decided to lie. The score was not 0-0; it was 24-7.

Wisdom was the second value compassion obliterated. It is unwise to the point of imbecilic to believe that the losing kids were in any way helped by changing the score. On the contrary, they learned lessons that will hamper their ability to mature.

They learned that someone will bail them out when they feel bad.

They learned that they do not have to deal with disappointment in life. Instead, someone in authority will take care of them.

They learned that their feelings, not objective standards, are what society deems most important.

They learned that they are not responsible for their behavior. No matter how poorly they perform, there will be no consequences.

At the same time, the kids on the winning team learned not to try their best. Why bother?

Building character was the third value trumped by compassion. People build character far more through handling defeat than through winning. The human being grows up only when forced to deal with disappointment. We remain children until the day we take full responsibility for our lives...

The fourth value that compassion denied here was fairness. It was entirely unfair to the winning team to have their score expunged, all their work denied.


teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee

South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2007 :  12:06:59 PM  Show Profile  Send Hopeful Rolling Waves an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, we're in big, big trouble.

http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List
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Infant Eyes
Try A Little Harder

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2007 :  1:56:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had a teacher that wrote in purple and it wasn't any less harsh than if it was in red. She would write things like "This needs to be redone, because it's horrible, and doesn't even look like half an effort from you".
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee

South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2007 :  2:14:49 PM  Show Profile  Send Hopeful Rolling Waves an AOL message  Reply with Quote
That's the shit I'm talking about man. Boo-fucking-hooo for red.

United States of Pansies. For a country full of people that are supposed to be so tough and stoic, we certainly are a bunch of whiny, self-esteemless cry-babies.

http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2007 :  4:05:52 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
a great way to avoid the super mean and harsh red ink that hurts your feelings is to not fuck up as much. also, it's easier to read red ink than purple against pencil or pen.

we learn life's most important lessons at the business end of the (figurative) fist.

death to false metal.
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sciphish
Chatterbox

USA
155 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2007 :  10:27:30 PM  Show Profile  Send sciphish an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I think you guys are being a cynical. I mean it's not
like our country is a bunch of people that think
there gonna be the best.
It's hardly the case, and I think that you haven't met too
many kids. Because really there are smarter then what there
parents tell them (and then there parents for that matter).
And when they see another kid excel at grammar or sports,
there gonna wanna know why. It's not like you can lie to them forever. i.e. cannabis.

But even before that, I think that a lot of what I've read
on here doesn't take in to account that reality is in each persons mind.
Now I don't want to get to philosophical, but really what makes you or
anyone else believe that what you see is the same to anyone else?
No I think that ranting thespian is somewhat right. That
if we are not somewhat the same in position in this crazy
universe then we are all completely different, which in my fucked head
still means the same? You dig? alright rip away...

I'm almost there...
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  12:42:41 AM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i'm going to go ahead and assume you were drunk or high, and skip the ad hominem attack. instead, i'm going to plough through the savage assault you've launched against the language, and try to grab hold of the disjointed chain of logic you've employed.

"I mean it's not like our country is a bunch of people that think
there gonna be the best."

yes, this is what i'm saying. they don't feel like they have to improve. they think they're fine just like they are. there's no impetus to improve. but we're talking about the whole country, just the children.

"It's hardly the case, and I think that you haven't met too
many kids."

based on what? that our stance on this topic differs from your own? this is a baseless assumption.

"Because really there [sic] are smarter then what there [sic] parents tell them (and then there [sic] parents for that matter)."

again, based upon what? is this an appeal to personal authority? what if my experiences say differently?

"And when they see another kid excel at grammar or sports,
there [sic] gonna wanna know why."

i direct you to tericee's post about the baseball game and infant eye's post. kids are told that being better on a personal or competitive manner is often isn't important.

"It's not like you can lie to them forever. i.e. cannabis."

i. . .what? how is weed like your parents lying to you forever? you can't lie to them forever, but you can stunt their drive to improve themselves.

"But even before that, I think that a lot of what I've read
on here doesn't take in to account that reality is in each persons [sic] mind."

before what? reality is in a person's mind insofar as it affects how they behave. that doesn't mean what they precieve is true or real. it's real for them only. i also don't see how this relevent to the discussion at all.

"what makes you or anyone else believe that what you see is the same to anyone else?"

probably the assumptions all humans make when dealing other humans. that there is some common ground of perception. difference of opinion doesn't mean difference of perception. it means different interpretation of those percptions.

". . .if we are not somewhat the same in position in this crazy
universe then we are all completely different, which in my fucked head
still means the same? You dig?"

i don't dig. it seems to argue against your assertion that everyone percieves differently. but i honestly have a hard time discerning what idea you're trying to communicate here.

death to false metal.
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Arthen
Alien Abductee

USA
4845 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  1:31:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I first saw his post, I thought it was song lyrics or a poem, based on the formatting alone.

Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee

South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  3:36:06 PM  Show Profile  Send Hopeful Rolling Waves an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Dan P. on that one sciphish. Our [Americans] schizophrenic nature towards personal achievement has got to resolve. No one wants to recognize his/her weaknesses anymore, that is a monumental problem--for kids and adults alike.

http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  9:11:19 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
there's a portion of yuppy-boomer assholes who also push their kid far, far too hard, as well. these would be the people who put their kids into schools at like, 6 months old. they're the ones who come to me asking how their kid is doing in his lessons as compared to my other students, and get angry when i explain you can't really make that kind of judgement simply because there are others who have been playing for longer. i tell them that the kid's progress is good, or he needs to work harder, as the case may be. these are the parents who pressure their kids into doing a thousand different things the kid doesn't want to do. often times these people will brag about how well their child did in whatever activity they pressured him in to, but never say a positive word to the kid regarding it.

there's a difference between telling a kid he needs to work to get better, and that improvement is good, and demanding perfection from your kids in all endevours. the more i think about it, the more i realize how awesome my parents were. they weren't striving and overbearing, but they didn't bullshit me about how i was doing in anything. they wouldn't shy away from saying someone was better than me at music or sports, but they'd always say that level of performance is within my reach with enough work, should i choose to persue it. when i did very well, they say so, and tell me to keep working because i can get even better. i didn't turn out too great, but that's my own fault.

death to false metal.
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sciphish
Chatterbox

USA
155 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  01:52:35 AM  Show Profile  Send sciphish an AOL message  Reply with Quote
As far as perception goes, Dan I find that even
you have fallen into the assumptions that are a "given".
Kinda like the 12 steps, someone one else is handing an answer for you, and it seems obvious to live by that. But I'll just "assume" that you have personal experiences to back up or coincide with the "contemporary" views. You've witnessed a kid being told or parents taking credit for, any kind of crap or worth, and that makes you think that that's a problem?
Where do you see the effect of telling kids they are
perfect? Many of these comments are just opinion, and I see in none of your comments any legitimate citations. I'm just trying to
bring an unbiased view (that no one can be too sure what they know).
Because as soon as you view a subject one way, you will
eventually contain yourself to that view, thereby distracting
yourself from the true issue.

It doesn't matter, if you ask me, what you
tell a kid. I mean, it's almost as if you are implying
that environment overrules heredity. Where I really think
the line splits 50/50.
Children have no goals and no understanding of a product
of work. And why should they? As a child things are provided to
them. And the way I understand what your saying, lacks compassion
and the advantages of it (you have said that you have no intent on being compassionate with your own child). No one wants to raise a loser, and no one wants to remember when they were 6 and got there ass handed to them. Can you blame them? What would be the point? And what kind of difference do you think would result from one way or the other?

Enforcing a "realistic" emphasis on child raising, defeats
the thing that sets people apart. Had everyone grown up that way
doesn't mean the world would be better. That would assume to much. I really can't understand how a child could comprehend or even take that much from the "inflation" of reality. The true point of a baseball game is to exercise , to have fun, to be social, and really to feel like a star. True, it is hard for me to understand a parent who puts a child through a lot of stress when it comes to academia and athletics. But it is certainly possible that that parent has issues themselves, or that's just the reality of that child. No one has a choice to be born, just as much as no one has a choice who there parents are. And maybe I'm being idealistic, but I think everyone has a choice as to who they are.

I remember growing up thinking I was Micheal Jordan every time that I played basketball. And eventually I knew that soccer was my sport and that I sucked at Basketball. Now I don't even play sports much, and I am now a musician. I don't think it matters who's better, it's what feels most comfortable for a given person. However, I will admit that is my opinion.

So all in all, I think it's great that many on this board agree that
kids need to be and taught to be realistic. Where in my opinion, (I think that's the point of this thread right? Or is this fact?) reality is in a person's mind. Not what anyone else tells you. Think about it, how do you everyday fit yourself into the usual grind, just to feel comfortable? I'd bet that most, if not all of us do. That's our reality. Trying to fit our crazy mind in well enough with all the other crazy minds. And to hopefully to find a connection that is legitimate. I find that to parallel what this thread is really about.

On another note, I think it's funny how you took the time that to reply to each thing that I had said (and now I'm trying to do it to you). Kinda like singling me out, it does feel like everyone on this forum at one time or another has had that treatment. But I think, before you do it again, that you should question the reason of doing something like that. I mean, I respect your opinion, but I don't respect how you come across on the board. I dunno maybe it's the fact that this is typed (limitations are abound). But I don't think I really made any personal attacks, and I respect discussion, but I could do without the attitude. I don't think being condescending facilitates discussion. It is possible to say that you agree to disagree. And I think that is how this will have to end.
Dan your a smart guy, I think that's obvious. But no one needs to be reminded. I enjoy reading your posts, because you bring up great points, and it makes me think. But sometimes, I find you can be negative and positive, respectively, when it suits you. I know now I'm being personal, but I just feel that it was something to be said (maybe no one agrees). But I really hope there isn't any bad vibes after this.

BTW did I ever tell you that I'm a Dan P. as well?

Hopeful, although I agree that it seems that Americans are becoming overly concerned about there strengths. I guess I'm confused as to the point that people are trying to make here. Are kids being told that competition is not important, or that we are all too competitive? I think the competitiveness is a result of globalization. I think it will get worse, and then reach a point were it doesn't even matter (that's hopeful "thinking" on my part). Because they are being told that it isn't important to compete or be better, what are they being told?

I'm almost there...
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Infant Eyes
Try A Little Harder

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  4:04:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the real problem with our attitudes towards raising children or life in general stems from issues with our lack of discipline. Now days discipline for children comes down to simply punishing or not punishing children. However discipline to me goes far beyond this. IMO what needs to be taught to children and adults is that discipline directly corresponds with our own happiness on all levels. From a musicians standpoint we have to have the discipline to do the things that are our weakness' such as practicing with a metronome slowly. That's a bitch, but those of us who are passionate about music do it because it helps us master time, intonation, and nuance in phrasing amongst other things.

Our society these days not only accepts mediocrity but pushes it. I don't think I can say it better than Keith Jarrett does in his linear notes that he wrote for the album Up For It, so I'm just going to type it for you all to read.

"As I write this, it is February 2003, just over 20 years since my trio (with Jack and Gary) recorded "Standards Volume 1". Our country is about to go to war with Iraq. There is a noticeable lack of poetry in the world. As a result, the world does not seem a place where joy and transcendence can thrive anymore. Aspiring to greatness seems a thing of the past. Imitation is all we know. Marketing is all we see. Jockeying for power positions of questionable (if any) intrinsic value is the norm. Knowledge is becoming more and more segmented and less than skin deep. Youth is beginning to forget that it's job is to look inward. Many and fame, alone, are motivations. What is integrity to this world? What is meaning? Why play music at all? What difference could it make?"

He goes on to answer the questions in the rest of it. Now we could teach children discipline, but I think people learn best by example and the best way to change this in our society is by becoming disciplined ourselves and passing on the secret to others.
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  4:32:06 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
eerie! the world needs more dan p.'s.

"As far as perception goes, Dan I find that even you have fallen into the assumptions that are a 'given.'"

things that are given are, by definition, things that are assumed to be true. but ignoring that, i haven't fallen into anything. my opinion stems from empirical observation. if this coincides with what you believe to be a "popular" or "common" view point, fine. i'm not sure what relevence that has to anything here.

"Kinda like the 12 steps, someone one else is handing an answer for you, and it seems obvious to live by that. But I'll just "assume" that you have personal experiences to back up or coincide with the "contemporary" views.

that would be a good assumption. see above. no one "handed me" an answer here, and i'm not sure why would suggest that someone has, unless you feel that opinions not in line with your own are a product of thoughtlessness or laziness. but, i won't put words in your mouth.

"You've witnessed a kid being told or parents taking credit for, any kind of crap or worth, and that makes you think that that's a problem? Where do you see the effect of telling kids they are perfect?"

i'm not entirely sure of the question you're trying to ask, but i'll try to asnwer. yes, i feel that the gross overbearing nature of many parents and the obsessive protectiveness of many others that shields their kid from all pain and all unpleasantness is largely detrimental to both the children and society at large. obviously kids need protection, but they also need experiences, both good and bad. you learn a lot from negative experiences. i mean, if you want me to, i can give you some stories of things i've witnessed.

"Many of these comments are just opinion, and I see in none of your comments any legitimate citations. I'm just trying to
bring an unbiased view. . ."

nor do i see in your comments any citations. the reason there are none is because these are, again, opinions based on observations. i don't particularly expect them from you here, either. you imply my view is unbiased. how so? and how is your opinion, which apparently is that kids are being raised just fine, unbiased?

"Because as soon as you view a subject one way, you will eventually contain yourself to that view, thereby distracting yourself from the true issue."

so your stance is that people should have opinions because as a result they. . .don't agree with other opinions? and that having an opinion distracts you from the true issue? what true issue am i losing sight of? it seems as though you lost sight of the original issue here when you started talking about this, instead of the topic at hand.

"It doesn't matter, if you ask me, what you tell a kid. I mean, it's almost as if you are implying that environment overrules heredity. Where I really think the line splits 50/50."

i'm pretty sure, although i don't have any citations, that it matters what you tell a kid. people who deal with abused children would agree. regardless, your argument that nature vs. nurture is split 50/50 logically argues against your assertion that it doesn't matter what you tell a kid.

"Children have no goals and no understanding of a product
of work. And why should they?"

i never mentioned a product of work, but i did imply work ethic. goals and work ethic are important concepts for life, if you plan on being functional and successful both in society and in your personal life.

"As a child things are provided to them. And the way I understand what your saying, lacks compassion and the advantages of it (you have said that you have no intent on being compassionate with your own child)."

yes, things are provided for children, because they are not ready provide for themselves. that's why, while providing for them, you teach them things like goals and work ethic, so they will be able to. also, i don't recall ever saying that i wasn't going to be compassionate towards my kid. i said i wasn't going to bullshit my kid and either inflat or deflate his sense self-esteem. i'm going to be honest with him or her, should i end up with one. if you equate honesty towards a child with lack of compassion, then i don't know, dude.

No one wants to raise a loser, and no one wants to remember when they were 6 and got there ass handed to them. Can you blame them? What would be the point? And what kind of difference do you think would result from one way or the other?

we aren't discussing a child getting their ass handed to them. we're discussing speaking honestly with your child about him or herself. there is a difference. encourage your child when he does well in something, so that if he chooses, he will continue to work and improve. but also, tell your kid when he does something poorly that he didn't do very well. the way you're saying it, you equate being honest with being a prick. as a result, i think, and this is an opinion, that'd we'd have more kids being better at things they like doing, and we'd have less kids with behavioral problems. i concede that no one wants to be a loser and no one likes remembering bad shit that happens. however, just because you don't want to remember it doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened or had no positive consequence. sometimes what you want and what you need are different things.

"Enforcing a "realistic" emphasis on child raising, defeats
the thing that sets people apart. Had everyone grown up that way
doesn't mean the world would be better. That would assume to [sic] much."

i agree, some assuming is involved. but assumption is involved, to some degree, in most theories, ideas, and philosophies. the importance is logic behind the assumptions. i'm not sure how a realistic approach to child raising would eliminate individuality.

"I really can't understand how a child could comprehend or even take that much from the "inflation" of reality."

neither can i, because i don't know what the phrase "inflation of reality" means.

"The true point of a baseball game is to exercise, to have fun, to be social, and really to feel like a star. True, it is hard for me to understand a parent who puts a child through a lot of stress when it comes to academia and athletics. But it is certainly possible that that parent has issues themselves, or that's just the reality of that child."

i'm with you here, for the most part. parents often have issues of their own, and a lot of kids get pushed too hard. i'm not sure feeling like a star is part of a baseball game though. excerise, fun, teamwork yes, are all part of it. the score is part of it, too, even though it's way less important than those other things. but you can't just say, "oh, better change the score so the kids' feelings won't be hurt." the score teaches a lesson, too: that you have to work to get better so you don't lose by a whole lot. the children should have been told that while winning isn't everything, or even most things, if they work, they can get better, if they choose to. it teaches work ethic towards things you care about, and about competition as a way to improve yourself.


death to false metal.
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  4:38:13 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
"And maybe I'm being idealistic, but I think everyone has a choice as to who they are."

they do. how does this tie into a realistic approach to child-rearing?

"I remember growing up thinking I was Micheal Jordan every time that I played basketball. And eventually I knew that soccer was my sport and that I sucked at Basketball [sic]. . ."

good. but did your parents tell you you were awesome at basketball? did they say you were michael jordan. basically, did they reinforce those delusions? also, it's not about being better than somebody else for the sake of being better than them, it's about being better than them for the sake of improving yourself. does it matter? only if you like getting better at stuff.

death to false metal.
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  4:41:05 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i don't mean to be rude or mean by doing it in this format. if it feels like i'm targeting you, it's because you're the only one in this thread debating with me, and so, there's no one else with whom i can debate. the picking apart thing, i find, allows me to sort out my side of the discussion easier, as well as being more effective. does it really bother you that much? you don't have worry about hurting my feelings too much by getting personal. i'm comfortable enough with who i am, and also, this is the internet. i'm largely negative by nature (or nurture, haha.) i can't completely change that, and i wouldn't if i could. i don't mean to sound like a smartass or like i'm being condenscending. i wouldn't feel that way if you argued the way i have.

death to false metal.
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tericee
Alien Abductee

USA
2579 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2007 :  04:31:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit tericee's Homepage  Send tericee an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
there's a portion of yuppy-boomer assholes who also push their kid far, far too hard, as well. these would be the people who put their kids into schools at like, 6 months old. they're the ones who come to me asking how their kid is doing in his lessons as compared to my other students, and get angry when i explain you can't really make that kind of judgement simply because there are others who have been playing for longer. i tell them that the kid's progress is good, or he needs to work harder, as the case may be. these are the parents who pressure their kids into doing a thousand different things the kid doesn't want to do. often times these people will brag about how well their child did in whatever activity they pressured him in to, but never say a positive word to the kid regarding it.


quote:
Originally posted by sciphish
"You've witnessed a kid being told or parents taking credit for, any kind of crap or worth, and that makes you think that that's a problem? Where do you see the effect of telling kids they are perfect?"


I think it's more a question of wanting them to be perfect and not accepting anything less.

We had lots of people at MIT that thought they would always be the smartest in the class and would always get the best grades. Guess what? Many of them weren't. (I sure as hell wasn't.) And for some of them, the realization that the student wasn't perfect was harder for the parents than the student. As students, we saw lots of other kids getting their first B, then their first C, etc. So we knew we weren't alone. But some kids -- the one I knew was named Mark -- called home about these grades and their parents just didn't understand why their kid wasn't perfect any more. And they rode them for it. And some of those kids committed suicide. Which pretty much sucked.

There's a song called "Perfect" on the Alanis Morrisette album Jagged Little Pill that always makes me think of Mark...

"Perfect"

Sometimes is never quite enough
If you're flawless, then you'll win my love
Don't forget to win first place
Don't forget to keep that smile on your face

Be a good boy
Try a little harder
You've got to measure up
And make me prouder

How long before you screw it up
How many times do I have to tell you to hurry up
With everything I do for you
The least you can do is keep quiet

Be a good girl
You've gotta try a little harder
That simply wasn't good enough
To make us proud

I'll live through you
I'll make you what I never was
If you're the best, then maybe so am I
Compared to him compared to her
I'm doing this for your own damn good
You'll make up for what I blew
What's the problem...why are you crying

Be a good boy
Push a little farther now
That wasn't fast enough
To make us happy
We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect

I couldn't find an audio file, but here's the song in a YouTube video from Germany: http://youtube.com/watch?v=B_X-8LBUl34

teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee

South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2007 :  10:39:14 AM  Show Profile  Send Hopeful Rolling Waves an AOL message  Reply with Quote
That's exactly what I am talking about Teri. Why are children programmed with this 'be perfect or die' mentality? It's fucking scary. Don't get me wrong, I have no compassion for anyone who kills themselves over such trival matters as bad grades, broken relationships, depression, etc. Legalize it; it'll help out with that population problem we were talking about. I digress.

Who do we blame? Parents, teachers, colleges, the government? I say all of the above. We can't shield everyone from FAILURE, it's not natural. It's the only thing we can truly learn from in an experiential sense. To deprive children of being not-as-good, instills them with the kind of idea that leads them to paint the ceiling with their brains for getting a C at MIT.

So many problems, so few me's.

http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2007 :  11:14:29 AM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i place the blame on parents. college professors are doing their job: teaching college level courses. unless they're horrifically bad, the student sinks or swims depending upon how well he does (which goes back to work ethic.) i wouldn't blame "the government" because that's too broad a term. what parts of government? although i will blame the portions of government that continue to pile standardized tests on students, as if that proves a damn thing. i did great on all of mine, but so what? i didn't learn anything about anything. i wouldn't blame the college because, you know, the student enrolled there. the college didn't make the kid go to their school.

i blame the parents and the kid. the parents first and foremost, because in a lot of cases i've heard about, the parents are overbearing and basically say get a's or you're worthless. that's clearly stupid, and my bet is it's a driving force behind college suicides. and also, i have to "blame the victim," because in the end, they're the ones who pull the trigger.

death to false metal.
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tericee
Alien Abductee

USA
2579 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2007 :  03:57:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit tericee's Homepage  Send tericee an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I'm pretty much with you on that Dan. Mark's parents were ready to blame EVERYONE except themselves or him...

quote:
To the Editor: Our son, Mark Kordos, died on April 8th at MIT. He was the victim of an attempted suicide that ended up a fatal mistake. But the responsibility for Mark's death was not his alone; it must be shared by society, the "system," and by MIT... MIT, the "system", and society took our son, our shining young man, and victimized him...

Full letter to the editor is at http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_108/TECH_V108_S0436_P004.pdf and
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_108/TECH_V108_S0437_P005.pdf if you care to read it.

Note: there wasn't a gun involved in this case. Mark jumped off the 13th floor of one of the dorms; I assume this is because it's hard to find guns in Massachuesetts.


teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee

South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2007 :  08:49:37 AM  Show Profile  Send Hopeful Rolling Waves an AOL message  Reply with Quote
It's not so much how he did it, I don't think. Unless he cut himself in half with a bandsaw, that's just disturbing. It's such a shame when life gets wasted like that.

I really can't fathom being in a place dark enough to terminate myself, it seems like the only way really defeat your demons is to live your balls off.

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tericee
Alien Abductee

USA
2579 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2007 :  11:12:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit tericee's Homepage  Send tericee an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hopeful Rolling Waves

I really can't fathom being in a place dark enough to terminate myself, it seems like the only way really defeat your demons is to live your balls off.



Me neither.

teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2007 :  5:33:18 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
the whole fucking letter to the editor can be summed up by saying "pay us."

"Mark never thought in terms of personal limits; they just weren't part of his make-up."

why was this? was he just born to push himself too far? or was it because you brought him up like this? granted, some people naturally are more hard-working than others, but why suicide when he could no longer handle all the shit he felt he had to do?

"[complains about food at mit.] We know this added to Mark's bodily distress - he spoke of it frequently."

and what did you say to him? what did you do to help him in the apparently prison-camp style of living? did you send him food? did you send him money to buy food with? or did you not help him at all?

"Another issue is the abysmal state of the dormitory telephone system. . .we were told. . .to keep in close touch with out [sic] children. And we did! But never once could Mark make a long-distance phone call from his room. Never once, and certainly not on April 8th, could he simply reach for his phone to dial Mom and Dad and say, 'Help, please help me.'"

. . .cellphone? he didn't have a cellphone with which to call you? had he ever called you before? how? also, he didn't have friends he could talk to? a professional on campus? why didn't he call you? a good question indeed.

"Mark, in his perfectionism, in his conscientiousness, and in his perceptions of what society, the 'system,' and MIT expected of him, had broken on April 8th. . ."

from where does this perfectionism come? and what is this "the system" you keep talking about?

". . .and he couldn't even call those he loved most for help."

couldn't, or wouldn't? had he never called you before? i suspect he could have called you if he wanted to.

"How the most technically advanced university in the world ever allowed itself to give only the most spartan, inefficient, and out-moded communications system to its prized resident students
is to the eternal disgrace of MIT."

because this. . .is. . .SPARTA!!!!

"[second to last paragraph]"

yes, because often times striving yuppy parents don't exactly foster any admission of what they consider to be a "weakness." i can't think of many colleges that do anything but say "it's availible." it stems from the idea that college students don't generally need to be checked up on for potential for suicide.

we really have to look at it like this: there's a young man who strives constantly for perfect grades and takes on a remarkable amount of extra-curricular activities. he runs himself ragged doing all of this, and complained about it constantly, if we are to believe the parents. he then, without calling his parents or anyone for help, killed himself. he didn't cut back on his activities at all. for whatever reason, he thought to kill himself first. does this sound natural for anyone? i submit that it does not.

death to false metal.
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sciphish
Chatterbox

USA
155 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2007 :  1:29:41 PM  Show Profile  Send sciphish an AOL message  Reply with Quote
So the moral of topic is....

Fuck parents!



But seriously, parents can be great, but lately
they all suck (don't know why and there isn't any overtly obvious reasons) But I think we've gotten to a point in evolution that the responsibility has to change, not this selfish attitude. I dunno I'm talking non sense again.

I'm almost there...
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2007 :  2:59:59 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i agree, sciphish. my parents were and are fantastic., and i've known other parents who did well with their kids. but more and more, there are parents who suck. i think that it has less to do with evolution and more to do with the way values in society have changed.

we've taken child raising to two dangerous extremes. on one side, there are parents who have no control over their kids, don't teach them lessons they need to learn, and pretty much everything we talked about above. these parents would be the "no-schoolers." if you're not familiar with the concept, it's like home schooling, except that instead of the kid sitting down and the parent teaching, the kid just does whatever the fuck he wants. on the other side are the parents like the ones the mit suicide kid had.

i think this is a result of the increased stress on degree and educational background in the job market at large in addition to the idea that it's not ok to hit your kid every now and again. this is being taken more and more to the extreme, where parents do not discipline their kid at all. i see it in my own family. the difference in how me, my brother and my oldest 4 cousins were raised and how we are as people and how my youngest cousin is being raised and the kind of kid he is is obvious. and it comes from his parents refusing to do something about how he behaves.

death to false metal.
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jsemon2
Yak Addict

USA
920 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2007 :  4:10:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit jsemon2's Homepage  Send jsemon2 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
oh i got a few ass whoopings in my day. set my ass straight real quick.

OUT FOR LUNCH
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tericee
Alien Abductee

USA
2579 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2007 :  5:39:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit tericee's Homepage  Send tericee an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your response to Mark's parents' letter to the editor. You pretty much summed up how all his classmates felt about the whole thing.

One item of note, to be fair, though: we didn't have cell phones back then... This was the dark ages of 1988 when we didn't even have the world wide web - just the DARPAnet in its infancy.

teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2007 :  6:46:51 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
ah, i thought this was recent. jesus, 1988. ok, so he clearly didn't have a cell phone or internets. still.

death to false metal.
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Arthen
Alien Abductee

USA
4845 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2007 :  10:37:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually according to South Park...

This...is...LESBOS!

Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2007 :  2:21:21 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
that episode was pretty good.

death to false metal.
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Arthen
Alien Abductee

USA
4845 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2007 :  3:54:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For everyone interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-sfqRIaFm4

South Park's parody of 300.

Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2007 :  6:35:12 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
http://youtube.com/watch?v=caaQ4VT9GY8

death to false metal.
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Arthen
Alien Abductee

USA
4845 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2007 :  7:15:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd seen that before...

THIS! IS! CAKETOWN!

Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com
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tericee
Alien Abductee

USA
2579 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  12:33:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit tericee's Homepage  Send tericee an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I know this thread was pretty much gone and buried, but after the death of Kurt Vonnegut, my Audible.com podcast featured a short story he wrote called "Harrison Bergeron." The story was powerful and it got me thinking about the "everyone is equal" discussion from this thread. I suppose it also touches on the thread entitled "New York Bans The "N" Word..."

In Harrison Bergeron's futuristic society, everyone is equal. The first paragraph read, "The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren’t only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General.

In the story, the job of the US Handicapper General is to keep everyone equal. Beautiful people wear ugly masks. People too agile or strong wear bags full of lead. Clever people wear in one ear a transmitter, through which the Handicapper General sends out various noises to keep them from concentrating on a single idea or thought. In Bergeron's world, competition is great sin.

Does this remind you of our politically correct country? Rather than equal opportunity many people want equal results. They are trying to legislate the absence of racism, sexism, ageism, and probably a few other "isms" that I haven't even thought of yet. Heck, I just learned recently that there's a Wikipedia entry for the word "speciesism." Is that a real word?

I think America could learn a thing or two from Kurt Vonnegut, who was way ahead of his time. The society in "Harrison Bergeron" succeeded in eliminating competition and prejudices --everybody got the same opportunity to do everything -- and the result was fatal.

If you would like to read "Harrison Bergeron" you'll find it at http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  3:39:20 PM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
yeah, why would you want legal protection from things like sexism and racism? i mean, the amendment that bans slavery? fuck that. the legal right of women to vote? fuck that, too. people shouldn't be asking for protection from sexism and racism. because ultimately, society provides everyone the chance to change that themselves. /sarcasm.

the problem is, it is easy to misinterpret that story and think it means "those uppity [whatever] need to stop bitching the government."

if you think that people are equal enough without "big bad government" getting involved, i might suggest you have no real grip how deeply ingraved racism and sexism are in american society.

i leave out ageism because i hate old people.

death to false metal.
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Infant Eyes
Try A Little Harder

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  9:22:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm pretty much a socialist so I have to say I don't have a problem with the government regulating things when they need to, to protect people. The problems faced with where to draw the line can be tough though. Banning the N word was silly and if people cared about changing the ism's maybe they could educate or perhaps stop perpetuating such ism's and then educate people.

I hear lot's of people complaining about affirmative action, but I don't think many people understand the theory behind it. If you had a city like say New Orleans and it gets hit by a hurricane and decimated. Now let's say the government has 100 units (never mind what the units are) as a resource to help every state. Now normally they would give them out in accordance with population. So does it not make sense to send them more units of aid or resources to help them since it's need based.

I wish we didn't need affirmative action, but everyone needs to understand that there are deep divides that still exist from racism or sexism. It's by no means perfect and could be legislated differently, but why not allow it after hundreds of years of a little thing called slavery and then outright racism that only in the last 50 years has really began to even diminish?
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dan p.
Alien Abductee

Uganda
3776 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  01:43:52 AM  Show Profile  Send dan p. an AOL message  Reply with Quote
i think we agree there. while i understand the objection, i think that what people don't understand is that the after affects of things like slavery don't just like, disappear. there are long term consequences. look, i'm pretty drunk, and getting shit to sound and look exactly right is taking a while. i'll get back to this tomorrow.

death to false metal.
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